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Author Topic: Philippe Karl Training Method?  (Read 6504 times)

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Offline ParisDiamond

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Philippe Karl Training Method?
« on: October 12, 2014, 08:28:01 PM »
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  • Am I the only one who just doesn't "get" the current fascination with this man's methods?  I'm trying to be open minded but I just hate watching those being trained by him working horses and lifting their hands far too high in the name of his teachings. I haven't seen him doing this when he rides, what on earth is going wrong between his own riding and what he's teaching?

    There, I've said it.

    Good friends are following it and it's very difficult for me to stomach.

    I'm rarely this vexed over riding techniques, but this is just annoying the hell out of me.
    Tracey Brimble DAEP, North Somerset

    Offline Claire

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #1 on: October 12, 2014, 11:03:20 PM »
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  • it should not, as i understand it, be done all the time.  it's a momentary raising, then back down to normal hand position.

    So for instance, in my case - i go across the arena, my gelding distracted by mares ahead of him (he's a ladies man..) i lift my hands, he's reminded where he should be (attention on me) and comes back to me...

    action/reaction.

    But then, it was Becky explained it to me...

    Offline SueC

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 11:49:02 PM »
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  • I watched his video a few years back and felt that his method might work for him, but it's reverse rollkur.  Another extreme head positioning to get the horses where they're wanted.  Just up, instead of down.

    Sorry, didn't like it then and don't like it now and imo another method best left well alone.

    I prefer the method of the happy medium and would rather have a look at Bent Branderup or his students if I wanted to look at something.

    Offline ParisDiamond

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 12:27:38 PM »
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  • Interesting, over 100 views and only 2 replies. Thanks to you both and especially Sue, I hadn't seen it in that way, but I just know it's not right and it certainly looks awful.  I've seen videos of Becky riding recently and it certainly isn't a momentary raising of the hand I'm seeing.

    So for the other 100, are you unaware of this method, in favour of it, unsure, or too blinded by it to say anything?

    Videos of Mr Karl riding look fine, it's his pupils that catches my attention, what's going wrong in the teaching then?
    Tracey Brimble DAEP, North Somerset

    Offline lesleyk

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 01:59:11 PM »
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  • hello parisdiamond.  I looked at the post but didn't comment, because I wasn't really sure what the issue is.   I have never seen any of PK's "students" riding but am aware of who he is ...   are you saying you're unhappy with raising hands at all when riding?  Surely there are times when this is an excellent aid/signal (bit like claire's example) or am I getting completely the wrong end of the stick?  Am just interested, that's all, not being critical of opinions or anything.  .

    Offline Taliessin

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #5 on: October 16, 2014, 05:01:58 PM »
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  • This article is interesting, and has an explanation of the French raising of the hand:



    http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2014/10/16/history-french-equitation-part-ii-modern-french-classical-equitation

    Offline SueC

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #6 on: October 16, 2014, 05:25:53 PM »
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  • A short demo from this year, PK with 5 of his students.  Although the video is focussed mostly on PK himself, I think you can get the general idea of his students here too.

    Offline ParisDiamond

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #7 on: October 16, 2014, 07:54:54 PM »
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  • Thank you. Good to see something current. My views are confirmed, it's not what I want to see or follow at all. PK's horse in this is lacking so much muscle, it's almost ewe necked.    :wall:  I am concerned however that some people I like and respect are training with him???  :-X
    Tracey Brimble DAEP, North Somerset

    Offline SueC

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #8 on: October 16, 2014, 08:29:23 PM »
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  • His students' hands are high most of the time in this clip (there is a full half hour clip somewhere too with more of the same) and given that the snaffle rein passes over the top of their hands, the actual rein is already higher than most people would have it I think.  To my eye it is a completely different way of riding and training and looks messy even as an end result, so not for me either.

    Becky is one of Heather's high level EET's though and I know Dorothy Marks who is respected as a physio is also doing the courses.  They must see something I don't.  :)

    Offline ChrissieW

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #9 on: October 16, 2014, 08:53:17 PM »
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  • Thank you. Good to see something current. My views are confirmed, it's not what I want to see or follow at all. PK's horse in this is lacking so much muscle, it's almost ewe necked.    :wall:  I am concerned however that some people I like and respect are training with him???  :-X

    I don't feel qualified to comment but I don't personally like what I see in that video
    Chrissie - West Sussex, UK

    Offline nix

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #10 on: October 16, 2014, 09:05:31 PM »
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  • Just watched the video and I was going to ask whether it was a ruling that the lighter coloured the horse, the higher you had to hold your hands, until I saw the bay. The raising of the hand for a brief moment to ask a horse that's tucked itself in, to bring their nose slightly in front of the vertical I can understand, but I don't get this. Although I'm not really qualified to comment either, to my eye it makes the horse's neck carriage look forced.

    Offline why1040

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #11 on: October 17, 2014, 09:36:49 AM »
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  • I was having lessons for someone (not from EE) who started one of PK's courses.  We went from making some very nice improvements in Giles's way of going to really feeling as though I was going backwards as she introduced the things she was learning.  I eventually stopped going.  It's not for me, because it's not for my horse.

    Offline nona

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #12 on: October 17, 2014, 08:07:25 PM »
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  • My OH and I have been having a lesson with Becky Holden every 3 months or so for the past 18 months, very much using what she has learnt from her training with Philippe Karl. 

    We have between us three very different horses; a Tb/WC who would set his jaw, a cob who was inclined to be very heavy on the forehand, and an Andalusian who would tend to curl his head to evade, and also to snatch.  The 3 have improved out of all recognition and we are delighted.  We are all OAPs.  My partner and I came to riding late and the horses are 23, 19 and 19.  So even in our aged and inexperienced hands with older horses there has been a significant improvement and we are all much happier.

    Nona

    Offline Heather

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #13 on: October 18, 2014, 02:04:54 PM »
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  • Nona, Becky is Becky, she is a mile apart from the others on the PK training in her skill and application!

    I confess I was very intrigued by him when I first came across him, having had his excellent Long reining book for some years. I was pretty astonished that he had done such an apparent complete 'volte face' from that book when he described the artificial raising of the neck as being virtually the death knell of the horse! Here he was now, advocating it! I use the momentary raising of the hands, up and slightly forward for horses that curl back, but only when I am also sure that the curling back isnt caused by weakness in the hind end. But I feel that especially, whose who read PKs books or watch his videos, do this to excess and it will only serve to make the horse hollow.

    I do not like that fact that he doesnt remotely concentrate on improving the rider. I have the DVDs of his advanced teacher training in Germany, those having already done the 3 yr training and passing the exams. I would feel I had failed them,  if my working students rode like most of those on those DVDs, none of whom impressed me remotely, some literally bouncing in the saddle, and even the finished product, a Lusitano stallion, the rider still had her hands up near her boobs.

    Comparing the work with that of for instance, Bent Branderup and his students, I know which I feel is the superior trainer. I think PK himself is a Master and his methods clearly work for himself, but I still see a bulge in the underneck muscles of some of his own horses and those of his students. No horse with a bulge there is truly working 'through.'

    As I said Nono, Becky is an exception, but the rest, I wouldnt give you a thank you for. Tracey, I agree.

    Offline ParisDiamond

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    Re: Philippe Karl Training Method?
    « Reply #14 on: October 18, 2014, 04:17:08 PM »
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  • Thanks for your comments, I'm glad I'm not alone. I have very recently voiced my concerns to a friend who is trying to teach using this method. I like her very much but I feel she's followed the crowd on this one. I didn't want to be two faced, I tried the hand raising with my grey mare who can curl up and I wasn't happy with doing it, so I told the trainer. I will continue jump lessons with her but not flat whilst this element remains in contention. I feel like I'm surrounded with PK people in training though  :cc_confused:

    Dorothy did a demo in August and I asked about this, in fairness to her, when riding her own horses she hardly raised her hands at all.

    Thanks for sharing, this wasn't something I could discuss on FB.  Xx
    Tracey Brimble DAEP, North Somerset