Amazon Fibre Feeds

Author Topic: Worming  (Read 4044 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dancingirl

  • Joined-August
  • Expired Membership
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 200
Worming
« on: July 18, 2014, 07:56:18 PM »
  • Publish
  • Just got Roxy's FEC back - a shocking 2850epg!!!!  :o  And I poo pick daily AND I wormed with Equest in March.  :cc_confused:  :sad:

    Can only think the paddock itself has significant contamination from previous occupants (the owner told me he cleared 11 barrows of old muck off the paddock the day before we arrived and he didn't bother clearing their 2nd paddock I had to do that myself. (We only moved here this year)

    Anyway doing mucho studying to make sure I'm as well informed as poss and have found these 2 links quite helpful:

    http://www.megalong.cc/RSPCA/Overview%20of%20Worms.htm

    and this was a webinar - given by the vet working for the manufacturers of Equest (just declaring interest)
    Its about 50mins long so not for the faint hearted but I did find it helpful.

    I don't really like using chemical treatments and was really hoping the poopicking and egg counts would mean I wouldn't have to use them too much so it was a real blow to get this result back. Still I'll keep going - I'm sure I can get it under control - the egg count lady seemed pretty hopeful I would get the egg counts down though she seemed to think it might take about a year  :o

    Offline why1040

    • Joined-November
    • EE Society Member
    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 1081
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 08:25:15 AM »
  • Publish
  • I started Giles with Intelligent Worming when I was still on livery.  For the most part, he was turned out alone as that yard owner considered him "dangerous" and a "menace".  He is one you have to be a bit cautious about which horse you put out with him, to be fair.

    But she did put the new lady and her two horses (heavily pair-bonded) with us for a few months.  She didn't poo-pick, she never wormed that we saw and actually in general she was rather hard work.  We had to separate them again when Giles chased her elderly one a bit too much.  I was extremely glad to not have to share with her as it meant a lot less stress for me!

    His wormcount that time came back moderate/high (I don't remember the figures, it was a few years ago), having been low/none seen at the previous test.  I was mortified and followed their plan exactly.  It took nearly 18 months to get it all back under control, even with regular worming, but we got there in the end. 

    Offline hannah

    • Joined-April
    • Expired Membership
    • Hero Member
    • *
    • Posts: 829
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 09:51:26 AM »
  • Publish
  • DG who do you use for FEC? Did they recommend worming then re-testing a few weeks later to check for resistance to your wormer?
    EET covering Central and North Wiltshire, Cotswolds and surrounding areas.

    Offline dancingirl

    • Joined-August
    • Expired Membership
    • Full Member
    • *
    • Posts: 200
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 11:26:44 AM »
  • Publish
  • It took nearly 18 months to get it all back under control, even with regular worming, but we got there in the end. 

    Good to know you got there  :db: - but I really didn't know it could take so long  :-\ . I suppose I've been a bit naiive but I thought with good pasture hygiene things would come under control quite quickly. Ah well - you live and learn! I suppose the important thing is just to stick at it.

    DG who do you use for FEC? Did they recommend worming then re-testing a few weeks later to check for resistance to your wormer?

    Yes - I used http://www.profecservices.co.uk/  - Mary Lennon from there has been fab and taken loads of time to talk things through with me - considering I've only paid her 6.50 for the egg count that's pretty impressive service. She's recommended that I worm again with Equest and then retest in two weeks to check how effective its been. I also checked in with my vet because that count is SO high and he also thought that would be the best course of action. I should say Roxy looks incredibly well with a really glossy coat and is calm and happy so you would never guess there was such a large worm burden there!

    Wormer just arrived in the post so todays the day!  :nod:

    Offline Claire

    • Joined-January
    • Expired Membership
    • Hero Member
    • *
    • Posts: 7933
      • http://myfifthhorse.blogspot.com/
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #4 on: July 19, 2014, 11:08:20 PM »
  • Publish
  • shame you couldn't put sheep/cattle in the pasture for a bit , or one of them then the other, as they assist in keeping worms down

    Offline dancingirl

    • Joined-August
    • Expired Membership
    • Full Member
    • *
    • Posts: 200
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #5 on: July 20, 2014, 08:02:07 AM »
  • Publish
  • shame you couldn't put sheep/cattle in the pasture for a bit , or one of them then the other, as they assist in keeping worms down

    Yes that would be ideal - we were planning to sell up and buy our own place with a bit of land this summer but that has been postponed to next year now due to OH's work commitments :sad: anyway when we get our own place my friend has offered me some of her little shetland sheep that she breeds.  :db:

    Offline Tiber

    • Joined-October
    • EE Society Member
    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5356
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 11:14:56 PM »
  • Publish
  • I use Verm-x to do mine, along with worm egg counts to check it's all ok. We've been on our field for three and a bit years and it seems to be working. Since I started doing worm counts last year Honey has only ever come back with low counts, and Pip had a medium count initially, but when he was retested after worming with Verm-x his count came back as low-nil as well.

    I use the powder that you add to their feed for 5 days every three months. We used to use the liquid but switched to the powder as it is quarterly instead of monthly - that was far too much hassle!

    Honey, Pip and The Duckies in soggy mid-Wales.

    Offline Starlight Dazzler

    • Joined- June
    • Expired Membership
    • Hero Member
    • *
    • Posts: 644
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 03:51:02 PM »
  • Publish
  • Did worm count for mine yesterday and they have both come back with low/med count. First time in around five years. We poo pick daily. Vet says they are seeing more positive results this summer and are putting it down to the hot weather.

    Offline dancingirl

    • Joined-August
    • Expired Membership
    • Full Member
    • *
    • Posts: 200
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 06:02:14 PM »
  • Publish
  •  :wave: Tiber Verm-x is a herbal treatment isn't it? Do you know what's in it and how it's supposed to work? Also have you been poopicking over that time too?

    Did worm count for mine yesterday and they have both come back with low/med count. First time in around five years.
    Why do you think it has taken so long there (not being funny - genuinely interested - 5 years is a lot of poopicking to see little change)? Are there a lot of horses/changing horse population? Or do you think your results have only come down due to the weather rather than from your poopicking etc?
    Presumably the vet means hot dry weather:
    "Traditionally harrowing has also been used to break up dung, exposing eggs and larvae to the sun to dry out and die.  However it has been shown that horse grazing on harrowed fields where dung has been spread in wet weather may have higher worm burdens than those where the dung is left.  If eggs and larvae are spread over the grass and survive horses cannot avoid them.  Eggs can survive for months even when exposed.  Some will be killed over four consecutive weeks over 20oC, allowing horses to be put back soon after harrowing." (from the RSPCA article above)

    We poo pick daily.
    It seems like daily poo picking should make more of a difference  :cc_confused: - do you think your pasture could be carrying high levels of contamination?
     "It has been shown that correct pasture management on its own can keep infection levels in the horse lower than drug treatment alone.  Drugs have limited powers and are used routinely in horses to prevent build up of pasture contamination, not to treat a disease.  If a horse is already on contaminated pasture, immediately after being wormed, he will ingest thousands more larvae which will damage him, complete their lifecycle and increase pasture contamination until the next dose."
    Are you able to move them onto clean pasture when you worm and rest the old pasture or do you only have one field?

    We need a team of sheep that we can send round between us cleaning up our pasture and then moving on to the next EEer  :laugh:

    Offline Starlight Dazzler

    • Joined- June
    • Expired Membership
    • Hero Member
    • *
    • Posts: 644
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #9 on: July 25, 2014, 06:40:24 PM »
  • Publish
  • Don't think I worded the original statement clearly! I meant to say that they have been clear for the last five years and this time have come back showing worms present. Vet says they are seeing more worm counts being positive this year.
    I knew what I meant  :-[

    Fields usually get two/ three weeks rest after being grazed, fine line between getting enough grass growth and too much for fat native ponies.

    Offline Jo*

    • Joined-January
    • Expired Membership
    • Hero Member
    • *
    • Posts: 826
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #10 on: July 25, 2014, 09:44:57 PM »
  • Publish
  • Dancingirl- where do you put your poo?! I know some people just pile it up in their field and this in my eyes negates the benefits of poo picking. Also with regard to 'dose and move'- this is actually a very dangerous way of managing livestock as if you worm them and then move to a new pasture, the only worms on the new pasture are those that are resistant to the wormers. These then replicate and bam, you have a whole pasture full of resistant worms. It is important to keep a population of worms 'in refugia' i.e. never having been exposed to a wormer. So putting them back on the same field for a few days to ingest a small burden of naive worms, or moving the horses to a new field and worming them a few days in, is a much safer option. As to Verm-X, there was an interesting study where verm-x was given to chickens (As they have worms which are very easy to kill!), and worm counts actually increased after giving verm-x!! Worm resistance is a huge problem- whole sheep flocks have been culled due to having a worm burden that is resistant to every class of drugs, if verm-x actually worked these poor farmers would not be resorting to culling their entire livelihood! ;)

    Offline dancingirl

    • Joined-August
    • Expired Membership
    • Full Member
    • *
    • Posts: 200
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #11 on: July 25, 2014, 10:34:45 PM »
  • Publish
  • Don't think I worded the original statement clearly! I meant to say that they have been clear for the last five years and this time have come back showing worms present. Vet says they are seeing more worm counts being positive this year.
    I knew what I meant  :-[

     :doh:   totally got the wrong end of the stick there!  :-[    :laugh: sorry


    Dancingirl- where do you put your poo?! I know some people just pile it up in their field and this in my eyes negates the benefits of poo picking.

    No I barrow it off the field and it goes into a purpose built walled muckheap well away from them.

    Also with regard to 'dose and move'- this is actually a very dangerous way of managing livestock as if you worm them and then move to a new pasture, the only worms on the new pasture are those that are resistant to the wormers. These then replicate and bam, you have a whole pasture full of resistant worms. It is important to keep a population of worms 'in refugia' i.e. never having been exposed to a wormer. So putting them back on the same field for a few days to ingest a small burden of naive worms, or moving the horses to a new field and worming them a few days in, is a much safer option.

    Hmm well I think resistance could be a factor as the place we were at until January used blanket worming, moving onto clean pasture and clearing the field daily for the next week with relatively poor management and no FECs to monitor. One more week to go and then I can redo the FECs which will give me more information to go on - hopefully much lower counts rather than resistant worms.

    As to Verm-X, there was an interesting study where verm-x was given to chickens (As they have worms which are very easy to kill!), and worm counts actually increased after giving verm-x!!
    Guess that means your success is down to your good management Tiber - whatever works... or if it aint broke don't fix it!  :D

    Offline dancingirl

    • Joined-August
    • Expired Membership
    • Full Member
    • *
    • Posts: 200
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 10:38:55 PM »
  • Publish
  • Vet says they are seeing more positive results this summer and are putting it down to the hot weather.

    I suppose the mild winter must have meant more eggs that might have been killed by hard frosts will have got through the winter on the grass.

    Offline dancingirl

    • Joined-August
    • Expired Membership
    • Full Member
    • *
    • Posts: 200
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #13 on: August 06, 2014, 05:59:36 PM »
  • Publish
  • Yay egg counts are back and we got <50 'no eggs seen' for both horses  :db:

    So I guess that means that those worms weren't resistant which leaves me thinking the only other likely explanation is high levels already in the pasture. If that's the case then I'm likely to get a few more high results before the poopicking regime starts to have an impact on the land burden.

    Offline ros

    • Joined-December
    • Expired Membership
    • Hero Member
    • *
    • Posts: 1672
    Re: Worming
    « Reply #14 on: August 06, 2014, 09:18:30 PM »
  • Publish
  • We've just done worm counts for all 9 horses/ponies on our yard.  The results were quite erratic.

    In Merly's field, his count was 875 (I did him with Pramox in Spring); the YO's mare (who hasn't been wormed at all for at least 2 years) was 0; a newish mare on loan from a hill farmer (no idea whether she's been wormed or not) came back at 250; and a newly broken youngster, purportedly wormed at the yard where he was started in April, was over 1700.

    In the other field of 4 ponies that arrived last November, one pony who hadn't been wormed came back 0; one who had at 175; the other two who hadn't been wormed since arrival were 1050 and I can't remember the other but it was quite high.

    One recently arrived poor little pony mare who has Cushings and grazes for short periods alone, was 0.

    Merly's counts while he was at home on the farm up to 2003 were always 0. 4 horses on the same field all year round; we split off a small section in summer when the grass was plentiful, and we picked poo daily; in winter the field was opened up to the horses and we didn't bother picking poo!. We ran sheep and cows over the larger section in summer, and chain-harrowed and rolled once or twice a year. We wormed once a quarter, which looking back on it was probably excessive.

    Since he's been at our current yard he came back with a low/medium count early on - I was horrified! Then about 3 years ago I was advised by the vets to do the 5-day Panacur course for encysted small redworm: foolishly I did and the next count after that was around 1750! I'm disappointed that it's as high as it is this time, but I reckon it's time for a change so I'm reverting to Strongid P this time and will do a follow-up worm count after that.
    « Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 09:21:02 PM by ros »