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Offline Jo*

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Re: Notes on ulcers
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2009, 12:08:45 AM »
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  • As above, the reason herbal remedies aren't backed up by tonnes of research is simply due to cost.  Doesn't mean they don't work!  As I work in the medical sector, I have some insight into the mega bucks behind the drugs companies and the massive budgets they have for things like testing and promotion.  IMHO, that's why drugs are more widely accepted by the medical and veterinary professions than herbs & alternative stuff.  If someone with millions to burn decided to do the testing on herbs etc, then who knows?!   :laugh:

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    Jenny,hes not my vet,hes a leading specialist in the subject,is your vet a specialist on ulcers? I ask not to be rude but because most vets arent clued up enough or up to date enough ( certainly our local equine vets arent) and they give out a lot of duff info

    The negativity in here towards certain professionals is extreme and I just wanted to put the other point across for the other professionals involved in treating your animals;

    A) Regards to cost: Yes, of course vets charge more for their drugs than some sites on the internet do, because they have to! Drugs are ridiculously expensive already, and then the mark up on drugs is one of the only ways vets can pay their way; a lot of vets actually lose money just by doing consults, so for them to put food on their table they need to get some pennys in, and some of that is mark up on drugs. With pharmacies now legally being able to sell veterinary medicines you will see vets putting up prescription charges because they need to to keep their practices afloat. And those pharmacists selling veterinary drugs have no training in veterinary medicine whatsoever so there have been a lot of cases of people misusing veterinary drugs due to misinformation (including an owner administering a frontline flea treatment up the backside of a cat :o )... There has all of a sudden become this image of vets being money obsessed people who add on extra pounds wherever they can to fob you of yoru money. Yes vets may prescribe you a drug that doesn't work for your animal, but that is not because they want to earn some extra cash, its only because they have seen that treatment work previously and have faith in that it will work for your animal...

    B) As for drug companies: Yes they make a ridiculous amount of money, but at the end of the day I am glad that the drugs being prescribed to me and my animals have had money thrown at testing their efficacy and more importantly their safety to both animals and humans. That is what many of the herbal remedies lack, often not the research into their efficacy, but into their safety. And if you expect their action to work like the drugs you buy off the shelves, expect their side effects to do the same... Now I am in no means against herbal remedies, but you cannot critisise the strict legislation that governs the testing of our drugs as it is only for our, and our animals safety.

    Offline jenb

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #31 on: December 24, 2009, 07:50:25 AM »
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  • Jo - I am a specialist medical accountant, so I am well aware of the costings and workings of a practice.  Thus my view is backed up by not only a professional qualification which enables me to understand these things, with all due respect, probably a little better than you, but also 13 years experience working with large companies and the medical sector.  I stand by my original views!!

    And I do understand that call out fees are necessary and you will never hear me complain about large vets bills, as I understand how business works and the need to make money.  But still, I can, with a little working out, quite easily see the massive mark up which is placed on drugs by equine drug companies (when compared to the human equivalent using the same drug) and also the discrepancies in dispensing prices and procedure prices by different practises.  I fully understand about overheads, but I also understand about company and partnership structures and can sniff a profit-driven business out at 20 paces...

    I am a well informed cynic...   ;)

    issywizz

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #32 on: December 24, 2009, 04:35:22 PM »
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  • Offline sandpiper

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #33 on: December 24, 2009, 10:16:03 PM »
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  • Thanks sandpiper,
    Can you tell us more about your own condition ,ie what caused it and how it responds to the treatment please?

    Well here is my condensed medical history, are you sitting down?  :D  I've been prone to occasionally crippling indigestion-type pains for much of my life but the reason I had a gastroscopy was due to pain in my oesophagus - this I believe was a self-inflicted condition after a social occasion where my glass kept on being magically refilled every time I looked away from it and I have no idea how much I consumed!!  :laugh: (don't actually know why I put the laughing smiley there!!).  I was very very ill during the night and even thought at the time I must be doing myself some damage  :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.  This was at a horse clinic and I had to miss a whole day that I had paid for (and boy did I pay for it!!!!!!!!   :o 8o().

    Anyhow some time after this I started to get the problem in my oesophagus - the gastroscopy didn't show anything untoward but I was put on omeprazole to reduce the stomach acids.  I also take a fair concoction of medications for various other conditions, some of which have been quite strong drugs (chemo) and which I think have played a large part in affecting my stomach.  So I wasn't altogether very happy at taking yet another med, but it has definitely stopped my predisposition to indigestion, which I have seldom had since.  The oesophageal spasms carried on for some years but touch wood they are a rare occurrence now.  Even to the extent that I still have the odd glass!!  As everyone who knows me will confirm  :nod: :laugh:

    I've never had any side effects or problems with the omeprazole and have been on it for some years.
    « Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 10:18:29 PM by sandpiper »
    Sandpiper    Shropshire, UK


    issywizz

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #34 on: December 24, 2009, 10:18:20 PM »
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  • Thats interesting.
    Ive just found out tonight that my MIL is also on it for much the same reason,its odd that the stomach acid can be suppressed to such an extent long term with no ill effects.  :cc_confused:

    Offline sandpiper

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #35 on: December 24, 2009, 10:21:53 PM »
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  • Well maybe there are long term effects, I just haven't had them yet!  But of all the meds I take it seems to be one of the more benign ones - so far ... .  Like you I would have thought that taking something which alters your natural state to such an extent must have side effects, but perhaps some people (or horses) have an over-production of stomach acids, and the medication reduces it to more normal levels.
    Sandpiper    Shropshire, UK


    issywizz

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #36 on: December 24, 2009, 10:24:11 PM »
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  • Well they claim that it reduces the acid production by 90%,apparently horses only digest starches in the stomach,Im  not sure about humans but there are no know side effects recorded. Weird!

    Offline acb.antonia

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #37 on: December 26, 2009, 12:04:40 PM »
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  • I am sure that my mare has a problem with ulcers.  She's cribbed since she was about 6 years old and we believe that this started because her previous owners left her for long hours stabled without adlib hay.

    I have spoken to 2 different vets from our practice who have said that the best thing to do is make sure she gets plenty of grass, which she does but on an over grazed patch in summer because she's prone to laminitis.  We give her plenty of soaked hay so she never goes hungry.

    She doesn't show any other signs of discomfort besides the cribbing.  Would anybody recommend me trying her on some omeprazole?

    issywizz

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #38 on: December 26, 2009, 03:23:09 PM »
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  • I would say she almost certainly has ulcers-they dont go away without treatment although it appears that they can possibly ease with better management ( maybe).
    Could you get her scoped? the GG is an awfully expensive med to use as a trial and as the cribbing may never stop no anyway you may not be able to tell if its done anything without scoping.

    Offline Cloud_cirrus

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #39 on: December 26, 2009, 07:32:53 PM »
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  • Found a good article from the Royal Veterinary College, has got a nice drug comparison including dosages at the bottom of it:

    http://www.rvc.ac.uk/ERH/Referrals/documents/ERHnews_0308.pdf

    Interesting what they say about withdrawing Omeprazole 48 hours before competition, I would have thought before and after a competition was when you most wanted it if you horse was an ongoing ulcer sufferer.

    Offline acb.antonia

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #40 on: December 26, 2009, 09:52:41 PM »
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  • I would say she almost certainly has ulcers-they dont go away without treatment although it appears that they can possibly ease with better management ( maybe).
    Could you get her scoped? the GG is an awfully expensive med to use as a trial and as the cribbing may never stop no anyway you may not be able to tell if its done anything without scoping.

    I'll research it a bit and ask the vet, they're back in a couple of weeks anyway.  The only thing that bothers me about it is that she's an older horse (20 this time) and doesn't respond to sedation.  She had a power float recently which was quite traumatic for her (and which I won't put her through again) so I'm cautious about what treatment she receives and need to weigh up weather the benefits outweigh the trauma of the procedure.  She's probably had the problem for over 10 years.  Poor thing. 

    All these supplements cost a fortune, she's already on formula for feet and probably ready to go on a joint supplement for arthritis.  Horses are becoming an elitist hobby again.

    Thanks for this post, I will have a good read through all the links when I've got a bit more time.

    Hope Bambu improves soon enough!

    issywizz

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #41 on: December 26, 2009, 10:31:24 PM »
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  • Thanks for the link  :db:
    Acb,that is awkward then,presumeably she isnt insured for illness either if shes 20?
    You *could* try her on the GG ( with vets approval obviously) but it would be down to whether or not the signs are clear enough to tell if theres an improvement?
    My friends pone had them and he was very aggressive so its obvious with him ( he was scoped originally and also scoped clear but we know what the signs are now) The problem with cribbing if thats the only sign is that sometimes they continue anyway after the cause has gone-this pone cribs as much now as he did before treatment but we know he is clear from the scope.
    Your other option would be to give her 4 weeks GG anyway based on the idea that it is effective in most cases then continue with something like neigh-lox.
    Is she in work?

    issywizz

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #42 on: December 27, 2009, 09:18:29 AM »
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  • SNC

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #43 on: January 06, 2010, 06:44:21 PM »
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  • I had a newsletter with my vets bill today and one of the articles were a New laboratory test being used which was a faecal test which diagnoses Grade 2 ulcers and above.  I don't know if anyone has heard of this  :)

    Offline Jo*

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    Re: Notes on ulcers
    « Reply #44 on: January 06, 2010, 07:03:46 PM »
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  • Hi SNC, do you know what the test is called? Or just the name of your vets?