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Author Topic: Very interesting article on working deep and round...  (Read 9989 times)

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Offline Mossy

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Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2009, 06:50:15 PM »
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  • There is horrible triangle at work. One medal winner uses a technique which wins. S/he teaches it at clinics 'cos it "works". The spectators who watch go and teach it to their pupils. etc  :rant:

    To quote WB Yeats.
    Bigger fleas have little fleas
    Upon their backs to bite 'em.
    Little fleas have lesser fleas,
    And so ad infinitum

    I see the same process here and it why Heather is so slated in her own county  :wall:
    Mossy

    What am I, that one so big and powerful as you should trust me and do my bidding?

    winnieandben

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #16 on: July 12, 2009, 06:55:53 PM »
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  • Great article, thanks for posting it.

    I didnt realise that was how the flashy front leg trot was trained.  :cry: No wonder it looks so un natural.

    issywizz

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 06:57:00 PM »
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  • Great quote Mossy!  :db:
    Another thing that occurred to me is that if its all the judges are presented with ( and Im not sure there are *any* international GP riders left that dont use at least deep and round) what are they going to do?
    Obviously there is a question as to how things reached such a level in the first place though.

    Offline Heather

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 07:16:27 PM »
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  • But D they really appear this way, Sarah? Those photos on Theresa's site are all in the warm up at international competitions. Do they look relaxed and supple? Gerd Heuschmann showed how they are in fact, tight through the back and is why they move with that exaggerated foreleg action, so ably explained by Theresa.

    There is no way that such ritual abuse of horses should be allowed to take place in a warm up arena. I know the judges only judge what they see before them in the actual arena, but if they know that these practises are going on in the warm up, could they not stop it? Is it any less abusive, to ride a horse with his neck so curled up that his eyes appear to be straining out of their sockets, as in some of the close ups on HFL, than it is to be beating a horse or using spurs violently? I get the audience at my demos to pull their chin in to their neck and hold it there for 15 seconds.

    Last weekend in Holland, I asked my spectators, to do this and most were rubbing their necks before a count of ten!! Imagine what the horse must feel like, when ridden for a whole session, in a tight De Gogue in rollkur, as Theresa showed on her site and advocated by I believe, Janssen himself, if a human feels pain after ten seconds!! The competition dressage world is out of control, it is allowing clearly abusive practises to take place.

    Heather

    Offline Heather

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #19 on: July 12, 2009, 07:19:00 PM »
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  • Kyra Kyrkland does not use rollkur and is very classical in her approach, ok, German classical, but classical nonetheless! She isnt the prettiest rider in the world to watch, but she has done wonders with the Portuguese team, and did you see in H and H, she has pinched a lovely 17 hand Luso stallion from Tor Borba, director of the Escola, to compete!! Good old Kyra!! :yahoo: :db:

    Heather

    issywizz

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #20 on: July 12, 2009, 07:49:18 PM »
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  • No,Rollkur looks horrendous,but most of the 'deep and round' work which is more prevalent looks  relaxed and supple.
    Most of the GP riders actually dont like rollkur-lets face it andbody can see its abhorrent,but deep and round is widely accepted and Theresa seems to be saying that is also pretty damaging.

    I think ref the warm up arenas though,people are simply too afraid of being sued to stop it-until there is completely decisive proof that is enough to overturn a court case,( which would be brought Im certain) then how can anybody stop it?  :-\

    Ive always liked Kyra,she has a great clothing range too which I dont mind being seen in unlike another person I could mention.  :whistle: :laugh:

    Offline Pikku Karhu

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #21 on: July 17, 2009, 10:59:55 AM »
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  • The competition dressage world is out of control, it is allowing clearly abusive practises to take place.

    I so agree, but not many people dare say this aloud. And when they do it gets ignored by those who are in the position to change things. I don't know what the answer is, it would probably take someone with true classical principles and hell of a backbone to get in charge of FEI to really turn things round. I felt so hopeful when the dressage committee had the total changeover, but has anything come out of it?

    Thanks for the link Sarah, it's a fantastic article.


    Johanna - Finnish lass lost in deepest Scotland!

    "If you want opinions, ask people. If you want the truth, ask your horse."

    Offline shoveltrash

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #22 on: July 17, 2009, 11:46:20 AM »
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  • that whole site is fantastic.  i have it bookmarked, and go back to read frequently :nod:
    Mossy i LOVE your quote :db:
    Quote
    To quote WB Yeats.
    Bigger fleas have little fleas
    Upon their backs to bite 'em.
    Little fleas have lesser fleas,
    And so ad infinitum
    Trish - Boca Raton, Florida, USA

    "If we are conscientious, beautiful roses can grow from the manure of our recognized and corrected mistakes."
    Erik Herbermann


    Offline cirocco

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #23 on: October 25, 2009, 03:39:14 PM »
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  • I read it all, cant say I understood some, but the pictures were enough.

    Its hard to understand how the winning of anything would require that level of ignorant treatment dished out to those- must be hundreds of horses?? I was told that the failure rate of these 'top' class horses is over 70%, which means that they are sold off to lesser mortals who would then try to emulate their idols, the likes of which are pictured here.
    In the experienced [ but wrong hands ] its bad enough, but pity these poor creatures forced to endure years of torture in the hands of the totally inexperienced.


    Offline JanetGeorge

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #24 on: October 25, 2009, 07:57:22 PM »
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  • Its hard to understand how the winning of anything would require that level of ignorant treatment dished out to those- must be hundreds of horses??


    Ah - but winning is everything these days!  And the trainers are equally to blame - along with the judges.  When wannabee dressage riders go to a 'top' trainer and he/she tells them what to do, how many will have the knowledge to KNOW it's wrong - or the courage to say so.  The vast majority of trainers don't teach their students to RIDE - they teach them to WIN!

    Same with the BHS exam system - candidates are trained to pass exams, not to TEACH!

    Many years ago I had the privelege of some lessons with two great European classical instructors.  One was with a trainer called Karl Jurenac then - his proper name was a bit too foreign for Aussies in the '60's!  His teaching - and seeing him ride - had a profound influence on me - I'd never been taught as he taught - and I'd never seen anyone ride so effectively AND kindly!  Practically everyone then - me included - rode OTT TBs that went round heads in the air.  He'd get on them and in minutes they'd be stretching down - long and low - but NEVER with the head behind the vertical!!

    There was another trainer in Melbourne - he was Austrian - of the same era whose name escapes me (it shouldn't - I had a horse in training with him for 3 months - but that's what age does to you.)  He taught the same - long and low and NEVER behind the vertical - he referred to 'showing your horse the way to the ground' as the VERY first step.  I had a lunatic ex-hurdler and it took him 15 minutes to get him started, and within 2 weeks he could ride him in that position, through changes of rein and transitions, without him lifting his head!  Sadly, he committed suicide a couple of years later (I don't think it was the standard of Australian dressage at the time that was to blame!)

    Neither of them cared too much about winning - it was the way you rode and trained a horse that mattered.  And that the horse was happy!

    Offline Heather

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #25 on: October 26, 2009, 08:00:22 AM »
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  • Hi Janet,

    Was it Kalman de Jurenak? I have recommended his videos for years- in fact persuaded pferdiatv in Germany to bring them out on DVD too instead of scrapping them. They are available in our shop- his student Hans Heinrich Meyer zu Strohen is one of my favourite riders in the whole world, and he is the rider on the DVD's. Not a hint of rollkur in sight!

    Heather

    Offline JanetGeorge

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #26 on: October 26, 2009, 09:08:33 AM »
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  • Oh yes!  When I first heard of Kalman de Jurenak here it rang loud bells and I wondered.  Then I Googled K de J, and found references to him being a 'guest instructor' at Tall Timbers in Sydney during the relevent period (as the K J I knew was!)

    We had very few GOOD dressage people in Oz at the time!  I remember going to a clinic given by Rosemary Springer a few years later - she was meant to be the dog's bo**ocks but she was VERY different (my Australian trainer of the time nicknamed her Madam Guillotine :whistle:) and our best rider of the time, Tina Wommelsdorf, refused to let her on her horse (a very hot TB that needed very sensitive riding!)

    And the next trainer I had the opportunity to do a clinic with was Molly Sievewright - she was a breath of fresh air after Springer and much closer to how I wanted to ride.

    Offline Pikku Karhu

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    Re: Very interesting article on working deep and round...
    « Reply #27 on: October 26, 2009, 10:19:57 AM »
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  • Ah - but winning is everything these days!  And the trainers are equally to blame - along with the judges.  When wannabee dressage riders go to a 'top' trainer and he/she tells them what to do, how many will have the knowledge to KNOW it's wrong - or the courage to say so.  The vast majority of trainers don't teach their students to RIDE - they teach them to WIN!

    Same with the BHS exam system - candidates are trained to pass exams, not to TEACH!

    This is SO true, sadly!


    Johanna - Finnish lass lost in deepest Scotland!

    "If you want opinions, ask people. If you want the truth, ask your horse."