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Author Topic: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?  (Read 8781 times)

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Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2015, 11:29:27 AM »
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  • Dell and Ros...If you are now bored...best not carry on reading....however....I would agree with you...reading the theory is all well and good....as we can all read the books....but putting it into practice is another thing.....I have had less than 12 riding lessons in my life, and acquiring my Mare at 48 yrs of age, ( I  have had her now 12 years now....so you can work out how old I am!!!).......she  was my first horse ever. Needles to say I was HUGELY  "over horsed" and was advise on many occasions to get rid of her.


    My Mare with her second colt by Stedinger....he will be 3 in June and is already 16.3hh


    Me riding my Mare before she went into foal for the second time....I dont hold the reins in this fashion any longer....and like to think I am a far better rider now than I was then..... being that the vid is nearly 4 years old!!

    This vid is of her 1st Colt now 7 yrs old


    She has given me 2 amazing colts both I have backed myself (the 3 yr old is in the process still) She has taught me SO MUCH. I ride twice a day and learn something new every day about myself and my horses. I listen to their feed back when trying out the Theories I learn from studying the books.

    All the riding  lessons I have had which were by VERY well know local dressage trainers were for the most part useless.....so I decided to go it alone.  I would love to find  someone locally who can act as a coach....but so far to no avail.....none seem to know about the Classical Tradition...French or any other School.....if they say they do when I question their theoretical knowledge they then can't answer the questions. Some wont even ride your horse!!


    Beth

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #46 on: February 01, 2015, 11:45:27 AM »
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  • A much less arrogant post Keith. Well done! We are all trying to learn, like you,  many of of us are fumbling along trying to learn classical methods without the benefit of a local trainer. This is why we are here for discussion, not to be preached at! Heather would be the best person to critique your videos, so perhaps you could pop them up on the EE Facebook page as that is where she is most active  :)

    Offline keith.bartlam.3

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #47 on: February 01, 2015, 11:55:01 AM »
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  • t's incredibly rude to just appear on a forum with no introduction, and expect people to bow down to your superior knowledge.  Polite discussion is welcome and encouraged, but you seem keen just to show off your technical knowledge. You haven't familiarised yourself with any of the posters so have no idea of the vast wealth of knowledge that is on here. Heather, who's forum this is as you know, does actually admire much of PK's work, but is concerned that while his methods work for him, they can be difficult to put across to many riders. I believe he only teaches his own teacher trainees so his teachings are further diluted. We have members on here who are using his methods successfully, as taught by Becky Holden, who originally did a lot of training with Heather.

    Beth.....I'm sorry that you find me "incredibly rude" to just "Appear" on this Forum. I wasn't aware there is a process whereby I needed to Introduce myself formally......could you enlighten where I would find that information so I can fulfill the criteria?

    I also feel sorry if you find that I expect people to bow to my "superior Knowledge"....I have never said I posses any such thing...if you and others think I have, then I cannot  account for yours or their thoughts.

    You are incorrect about weather or not I have familiarized myself with other posters on here or not. I am VERY familiar with Becky Holden's work and seen her ride many times in a menage environment. I have had many discussions directly with Heather regarding PK, and I don't think it appropriate in this forum to elaborate further on what was a private conversation between us. I am sure if she thinks is appropriate, she will permit you to be privy to her thoughts, and would suggest to seek them directly from her yourself if you are wanting further clarification on them.

    Your "beliefs" regarding PK only teaching his teacher trainees.....well on this point in particular, you are is correct.

    Becky Holden will confirm that to you when you see her next. 

    I am presuming that as she is one of those trainees, you find her thoughts and training skills thus diluted? As a mater of record and Fact, I know them not to be.

    Offline keith.bartlam.3

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #48 on: February 01, 2015, 12:14:28 PM »
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  • Beth..."A much less arrogant post Keith"...........you might not think so after you have read my reply to your post ....if anything....it was correcting your false assumptions about me...but WELL DONE for acknowledging  the need to learn....I can be equally patronizing if needs be!

    I don't preach....I just share my knowledge....that's what a Forum is for....sharing.....you are at liberty to ignore it if you chose to.....I shall not be offended....my only aim is to make sure my horses aren't offended by myself or by my ignorance of how I look after and ride them. That is why I am constantly seeking knowledge from those that know better than me....I would suggest others have the same attitude.

    On the point of learning.....I never stop learning and I learn most from my 4 horses and 2 remedial livery horses....one of which was going to be put down on account of his rearing....I am now jumping a 3 ft track with him much to his owners satisfaction, even if they are sacred to death of him.....I am VERY proud to be able to say so as well.

    Heather already knows of me and my horses etc,  the fact of which you wouldn't necessarily have been privy to.... so thank you for your suggestion anyway.

    Offline SueC

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #49 on: February 01, 2015, 12:37:13 PM »
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  • I don't want to get into this any further either.  :)

    The discussion has moved too far from its original intent and become less of a discussion.

    Offline keith.bartlam.3

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #50 on: February 01, 2015, 12:48:23 PM »
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  • SueC...I agree with you...however I will point out inaccuracies as they occur...Forums are NOT an opportunity for other members to criticize each other in a negative way....it should be if at all....constructive.....which I know I have been...but thank you any way for your contributions to the thread.

    Offline keith.bartlam.3

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #51 on: February 01, 2015, 01:21:16 PM »
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  •   Cobster...."but in this context I do feel that the use of the word should be qualified.."

    The word "Submission" in the context that I use it, means that the horse due to its nature (as opposed to our nature) seeks submission whether from us or another horse in the herd to seek an "assurance" that the other horse (or in this case the rider) is worthy to be THEIR leader.

    To decide this, the horse will test  out on a daily basis if the "Current Leader" is up to the job of leading. The reason for this is that they NEED to know for their OWN survival that the Herd Leader is good enough to protect and keep the herd safe from predators. Watch your horses in the field together and notice how the dynamics eb and flow in this regard.

    Once they have "Tested" the supposed Leader to that end.(the Rider in this case) then they acquiesce by showing signs of "submission" such as chewing and licking.

    This is what as riders we are trying to "provoke" when we ride to put ourselves into that position. So do NOT close the mouth with a tight nose band and a  Flash otherwise the horse cannot display his submission in the way we are REQUESTING it!

    Once we have it, we become for that period at least "The Leader". Some horses test you out periodical, some every 20 mins or so!!! They are the tricky ones!!

    Once you have that submission...be sure not to do anything to compromise it either intentionally or inadvertently....the horse will see this as bullying and react accordingly.

    So "Submission" put into a "horse" context and NOT a "Human" one meas 2 VERY different things

    We should always look to see it from how the horse sees it and not how we see it.......Anthropomorphizing horses leads to many problems and should be avoided at all costs.

    Rolkur is bullying the horse into submission and no true partnership will ever result from it.

    Having married my dance partner myself some 30 years ago I know what your early teacher meant.

    We could not have done all the big lifts we did unless we were a TRUE partnership which involved a LOT of trust on her part that I would catch or hold her for example in The Sit Lift or Fish Lift. Its the same with the relationship between a horse and its rider.....apart from the glaringly obvious fact the horse is a different species to us, they thinks and react TOTALLY different to us....so......it is our DUTY to understand that and NOT his to understand us.

    Learn his language and talk to him in it, if you want to really know your horse 

    Offline SueC

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #52 on: February 01, 2015, 01:32:05 PM »
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  • I'm locking this now, before I  :blowup:

    This is the Enlightened Equitation forum, it's not a member's place to point out inaccuracies as they see them, but to discuss.  It's a discussion forum.  When blowing ones own trumpet, not everyone is going to enjoy the music and opinion is not fact.

    We here do not strap our horse's mouths shut with flash nosebands, nor do we inflict rollkur on our horses.  By telling us not to, you seem to be implying that we do.  You're not on the same page as many of us here, but by saying that horses challenge us, or test us and we have to be the Leader, you are stating that as fact, a fact many of us would disagree with most vehemently and actually accuse you of anthropomorphism. However, by stating it as fact, you are not leaving yourself open to discussion, but rather upsetting other members, so, I'm sorry if that wasn't your intent, but..

    Like I said, I'm now locking this. 

    It will be now up to Heather if she wishes to unlock it.