Author Topic: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?  (Read 11624 times)

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Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2015, 12:02:39 PM »
I wrote this based on reading all I could find in the Old Master’s books and the internet, together with having a discussion with Phillipe Karl at his 2014 winter clinic in the Q&A session, as I could find no reference to Ramener Outre in his publications or DVD’s. He was very interested in my question, which was as follows:
1.What is Ramener Outre,
2. How is it done, (the aids used to achieve it)
3. Why is is done
4. For how long should it be carried out  (if at all)
5.What is it's relationship to Rollkur (if any) and how does it differ from  Rollkur if indeed it does.
6.What is its relationship to and with the procedure of Effect d'Ensemble."

A quite embracing and detailed set of questions, which I am determined to get an unequivocal answer to, from someone whom I expected to know the answers to!

Well I certainly was not disappointed! My previous post contains most of what he said, and  I have added to it from my own experimental  experience with my mare.   He also said he had written an article some time ago for an Equestrian magazine, I think he said it was in Germany, I’m not sure though.
Articles I could find on the internet, tend to be very long on the history of the procedure, but not on the HOW or WHY. So after 12 years (and 2 beautiful Colt  foals later.....1 gelded, one entire, both of which I have kept and am riding/backing now) I decided to research and use the procedure on my VERY "tricky"  brood mare, all else having failed miserably, to the point I would not ride her anymore! She, although easy to handle, and an Excellent mother, is a HUGE challenge to ride out in the fields, which is where I like to ride the most. (She is a  very powerful and impressive looking 16.3hh Selle Francaise x Hanoverian Show Jumping Warmblood), School  work can be either the same or the complete opposite, and depends on her mood. I have owned her for 12 years since she was 5 and now at  almost 18 she has improved out in the fields immeasurably since I have perfected (well almost perfected!) this procedure.  She has had a saddle built for her, which is check 2 or 3 times a year and she receives regular Chiropractic and Soft Tissue work to be sure her back is in good shape. She lives out all year round, (with rugs and good natural shelter), is barefoot and ridden 3 times a week only. Its been a bit of a journey for us, but I can now do a lovely swingy collected trot up a grass track which we sometimes gallop up!
As far as the comments are concerned on the word “punishment”....I take on board all that is said, and maybe the word itself  purveys  incorrectly my intensions towards my Mare.  I am trying to imbue an understanding between ourselves that she listens to me in equal measure as I listen to her. Of course “listening” between us is expressed through the language of “Body Language” and requires me as well as her to “Understand” this language. (Obviously, she is not able to communicate via the spoken word!) What horses DO understand however is to evade something, as we all too well know! By using the EE I manage to create a situation between ourselves whereby she “Evades” my having to use the EE. This suits me very well!!!! She knows it, and will now work in a fashion that she now knows will avoid the effects of a FULL application of the EE, which would impede her forwardness, something that she treasures above else. I can how hear the chorus of protesters saying you should not kill forwardness! No, I need to control it! This certainly is NOT a procedure I would use on all horses as the Spur can have an inhibiting effect to forwardness if used incorrectly and is misunderstood by the horse.  It is the riders duty to educate the horse to the spur, which is a rich language in itself.  The rider therefore needs to educate himself to HOW to use the Spur correctly so that he can teach it to the horse.  It is a “finer” way to ride. If the feedback I am getting from my mare is of “Impending” disorder, I will “suggest” that unless she returns to how she was before, then a full EE will be applied. This suggestion to her is “communicated” with a “LIGHT EE” which is a “brushing of the fur with my spur and a SLIGHT squeeze on the snaffle rein.  She is now so well tuned to the procedure, that she immediately returns to a good working posture.  For all those who view the word “Punishment” maybe the word “consequence” would be more appropriate.......I would recommend one looks at the way an Alpha Mare in the herd (As mine Mare is) deals with disorder within the heard. The offending herd member will get 3 opportunities to behave before they  admonished the “offender” with a “punishment” or “consequence” of not listening to her body language. We all know if we were to watch our horses in THEIR social environment how she would achieve this. First she will lay back her ears and make a threatening face at the offender. If that is not taken notice of, she will lower and swing her neck at them and move towards them. If that is not taken notice of, she will swing her rear end round and attempt to kick them, maybe even sticking with her hooves. So 2 or 3 opportunities of incrementally INCREASING magnitude, will end up with a “punishment” . Start softly, and then turn up the volume! This is how the EE should be done. Needles to say,  as a rider you will need to be VERY well balanced in the seat (not using the reins to balance with AT ANY TIME AT ALL) otherwise you will be giving false and confusing information to the horse, via the bit. You will need to be able to react to the feedback you are getting, like lightning to be effective. You will need to be extremely controlled in how you use your hands and legs/spurs and well coordinated in yourself to be able to achieve this. This is why riding in such a “finely tuned” way is not within the capabilities of the average rider. Horses such as my mare are VERY sharp and quick to act AND react. As a rider, you will need to be similarly quick. As horses have a quicker response time than we do, it is always a good idea to “anticipate” what might happen so that you are able to make up for the lack of response time as a species that we have. For example, I KNOW, from experience as soon as we go through an opening in one field into another field, she will see this as an opportunity to take charge. I am always ready in that eventuality and similar ones, and have no compunction to apply the EE (In varying amplitude) to re-establish harmony and Leadership. This is for my safety as well as hers.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 12:06:08 PM by keith.bartlam.3 »

Offline ros

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2015, 12:36:02 PM »
Forgive me for being extremely dim but are we actually talking about behaviours on the ground or under saddle here?  An Alpha mare isn't normally sitting on top of the horse she's disciplining.

Offline SueC

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2015, 04:51:55 PM »
Do you have video?  :)

Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2015, 06:28:19 PM »
Ros I forgive you!

Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2015, 06:35:57 PM »
All my research on RO has so far prooven difficult to find and so far I have not as yet found any video footage. If I do I will post it. I am planning to film some footage of myself ridding the movement and will post it then.

When in Saumur at the Cadre Noir last summer I videod what some might think is RO...of course it isnt!

The Warm up for the presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C8y0zlf9mo

And part of the presentation is here....not a lot better!!!....hope you agree!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C8y0zlf9mo






Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2015, 06:38:21 PM »
...and this  Carle Hester also at Saumur.....first part in the warm up is quite interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C8y0zlf9mo


Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2015, 06:44:09 PM »
..and this  Carl Hester also at Saumur.....first part in the warm up is quite interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgiSmBrx_2M

Offline Cobstar

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2015, 08:24:41 PM »
Thank you for sharing those videos. The first horse is really trying to please but the picture looks tense and the rider never seems to yield.

Carl's horse looks calm, supple and through and shows amazing rhythm.  So the head carriage may sometimes vary from the traditional classic one of poll highest and nose close to or in front of vertical but this is the frame that scores in competition. In warm up Carl will ride deeper but he's not pulling or riding horse in a vice between hand and leg. And Carl has the talent to get the horse to place the his neck wherever he asks on request.

Carl seems to train happy horses in a manner tailored to the individual. And he has a method that works for him and is repeatable with a range of horses.

It would be great to see some video of you and your horses to see what you describe in pictures.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 09:07:32 PM by Cobstar »

Offline ros

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2015, 08:35:09 PM »
Thank you, Keith.  :)

Fascinating videos.  Agree with Maria, the horse in the first three looks to me to be rather on the forehand - not a lot of hock engagement, and not at all relaxed - quite the opposite of Carl's horse, which is very happily producing some lovely and very correct passage and piaffe.

Would also agree that it would be great if you had some video of your own horses - especially your difficult mare?  :)

Offline SueC

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2015, 09:09:35 PM »
I thought you use it yourself?  I meant do you have video of yourself demonstrating?  :)

Offline SueC

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2015, 09:11:50 PM »
Ah sorry, just saw you are going to get some.  :db:

Offline SueC

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2015, 09:18:42 PM »
Carl's riding is beautiful as ever, with a relaxed, supple young horse.  Would have been interesting to see how the odg's would have ridden and trained warmblood horses and to what ends, but of course they didn't exist then.

Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2015, 10:15:03 AM »
This article is VERY interesting....involved but explains the bio mechanical affects that Over bending the horse has on its physical and therefore eventually its psychological well being.

Pay particular note to the point that over bending the horse DELIBERATELY to obtain submission. Although the article does not refer directly to RO, it does say it is wrong to ride the horse for extended periods of time in this manner. This is the same advice the Old Masters say about Ramener Outre...."it should only be ridden for a moment in time"....that is to say, as I interpret it, no more than 6 strides of the gait you are in. This should be achieved WITH THE SPUR AND NOT A PULL ON THE REINS.

Not all horses need this procedure. Some only very occasionally, others every day that you ride them. It depends on their personality and disposition. It is a procedure that should NOT be done routinely and as a matter of part of your training program every day willy nilly for the sake of it. Keep it in reserve to use it when necessary, so as NOT to dilute its effect.

Teach it correctly in a school environment.

USE IT WHEN YOU NEED IT ONLY........then stop using it.  When you have the submission to the "Disorder",  bring the neck and face back to or just in front of the vertical with small gentle upwards movements with the snaffle rein acting on the corners of the mouth. The horse will recognize this as his reward for being compliant and  she will interpret this as good Leadership form her Leader....in this situation that is you.

Needless, to say you can only do this if your horse has been PREVIOUSLY trained to the "language of the Spur".

So why do it in the first place??

Answer is....to get total submission from the horse (Horses submit to other more dominant horses by chewing and lowering their neck as you can see in the herd situation, especially when young horses clap their mouths to their elders) The riding in this posture behind the vertical has no useful supplying effect as some seem to think.....it has a more psychological effect on the horse so that the horse may then be ridden in the CORRECT posture with the face ON THE VERTICAL which will then be Ramener  leading to the Rassemble.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOT NEED to ride any horse for more than 6 /8 strides in any given gait behind the vertical to achieve this.


It should also be noted that a horse that chews the bit is not ACTUALLY chewing the bit, but drawing his tongue upwards in a swallowing action. This action affects the TMJ joint which has the effect of relaxing the rest of the horse's muscle systems....so this "Chewing" is the confirmation to the rider that the horse has submitted to the rider....so DO NOT abuse this trust by jabbing him in the mouth either deliberately or inadvertently (such as when you loose your balance and grab at the rein!!). You will know at the end of your ride if you have ridden correctly, when you notice a slight white foaming on the lips on your horse....(or green lipstick as is the case with mine due to living out and eating grass!) This is should be a slight foaming....not copious amounts of foam dripping and flecking the chest. If this is the case, the horse has NOT been able to swallow the saliva and has used his tongue  to avoid the pain of the bit, which has beaten the saliva like a whisk. A sure sign of harsh pulling hands.

The other point to remember, is that if you strap the mouth tight shut with a crank nose band and Flash he can't chew and open his mouth to swallow. Riders do this so the horse cannot get his Tongue over the bit and evade the riders hands. Of course the horse should not need to avoid the riders hands if the rider didn't abuse his horses mouth and tongue. Therefore there is no need for a nose band even! You will notice I NEVER ride with a nose band, not even when  I ride XX Country, in a double or even jump which I sometimes do in a double .....if your seat is balanced and you do not rely on your hands and your horse's mouth to keep or regain your balance, then you and your horse will have nothing to worry about.

The moral of this story is, learn to ride without reins as proof to yourself and your horse you don't need them for your balance in ALL 3 gaits.....and the Gallop AND jumping. I always get my Students to be able to achieve a jumping grid without use of their reins before I will let them anywhere near a double bridle.

So all you dressage riders who don't jump....its good for you and your horse . Even if its only a series of Cavaletti 50cm high jumps.


So what is extended periods of time? Some would say more than 5 mins, others would say up to 5 mins.....I think Carl Hester shows that it to be at least 5 mins, and I am not convinced he is using the spur to achieve it, but rather the rein.

The article  I referred to is here:

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php

Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2015, 10:18:34 AM »
Sue C....your comment...."odg's would have ridden and trained warmblood horses and to what ends, but of course they didn't exist then"

odg's.....who are they ....and what difference would warmbloods that didn't exist then have made?


Offline keith.bartlam.3

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Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2015, 10:33:01 AM »
....and the Piaffe and the Passage is more often than not BEHIND the vertical, than on it .....The only time when it is on the Vertical is at the Halt momentarily at the very end!

We all know that the number of  Degrees of the angle  between Behind, On, and Just In  Front of the vertical is small, and leaves very small "Margins" for getting it right....that is where the skill of the rider comes to into play. 1 or 2 degrees behind and it is incorrect and the horse is evading the contact and therefore the correct Posture, and more than 3 or 4 degrees  in front he will hollow..........again incorrect.

This is why most riders at all levels and in all disciplines like to "Play Safe" and ALWAYS ride Just Behind the vertical.....its scruffy, lazy, and academically incorrect......but then that's competition riding for you!!!