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Offline hilary

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Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
« on: April 08, 2008, 09:33:31 PM »
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  • I have just been reading  more of Racinet explains Baucher.



    The ramener outre  -a exaggerated overbending of the neck.

     He quotes the beginning and end of a chapter written by General de Kerbrech, on Baucher's last oral teachings

    Beginning : The ramener outre is but a means to fix the head in a normal ramener through a momentary exaggeration of the exigencies of the rider. One should use it only if one wants to carry out the schooling til the total annihilation of the resistances which the mouth and neck may present in any position, regardless of the gait.

    End: The elavation of the neck compounded with the "ramener outre" gives and fixes the true head set , which thenceforth will ever ever be lost , either in the active gaits or in the difficult movements."

    Is this early rollkur, though he does mention the "momentary" exaggeraration , and certainly rollkur seems to be more sustained?


    Hilary



    Offline Claire

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 10:11:34 PM »
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  • surely "elevation of the neck" the complete opposite to rollkur?  i read it as the neck being up, not down, and the withers up, not down ...

    Offline hilary

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 10:21:05 PM »
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  • "Ramener" is classical headset with poll the highest point, and forehead vertical.It is the addition of the word outre ( should have accent on the e) when he talks about the overbent position.

    fidget

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 10:29:29 PM »
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  • Great question Hilary!!

    I, sadly, haven't read the Racinet book.... I've been putting it off but I think I will HAVE to.

    Firstly the best way I heard this described was by Colonel Christian Carde on the Allege forum some time back. He recommended that anyone that felt ramener outré was rollkur should try two things. Firstly on a horse with a relaxed mouth use light closing of the fingers to 'place' the neck by ramener outré. Second take a horse who is resisting the hand and pull hard to achieve ramener outré. That way he said you would easily 'feel' the difference.

    I believe it is preparer, assembler, fixer........prepare, collect together and then fix. In other words from a warm, prepared, decontracted horse use the ramener outré to 'fix' the position and for the horse to fix it in his framework memory. This is the ramener outré that Carde speaks of. The first or beginning one that you talk of is just a fleeting 'correction' that 'fixes' the head into a ramener (by finding the resistance) which is by no means a rollkur position.

    I have to admit to some confusion when I look at 'pics of say Beudant where he looks, to me, as if he's in rollkur. I think the difficulty can be lack of moving evidence and so we must look to the written word and work it out as best we can.

    Trudi

    Offline hilary

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 10:50:25 PM »
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  •  I have just ordered Beudant's book -will be interested to read it.

    Racinet's book is excellent - really readable . I have found it fascinating because I've done a bit of training with an australian NH clinician , who incorporates a lot of Baucherist elements. There is a whole chapter on lifting the withers  , and he describes the sidesteps done completely laterally which creates elevation of the  front end ( we would have to try and do this with reins looped over 2 raised fingers, to show we weren't pulling!)

    Lifting the withers has been my complete bugbear - my horse has taught me so much, whereas I have not always been a good teacher! he got so flexible, but would still collapse at the withers . He still does it ,  but we are slowly improving  little by little. I have found that using a pelham or double (I prefer the double) helps me to keep his withers elevated on a much lighter contact than a snaffle. I then try and progressively let him have   a lower head carriage but maintaining the raised withers. As always, learning from one's own mistakes1

    I wish I had read this book about 5 years ago!


    From your description by Colonel Carde one could see how the 2 things may be veRy different, but, as you say, look the same in a one frame shot, and also how one would have to be so skilled to do ramener outre  (othewise the horse would end up resisting)





    Offline Heather

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #5 on: April 09, 2008, 08:33:37 AM »
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  • THat is a very interesting and totally logical explanation of the 'ramener outre' Trudi, and clarifies it for me- many thanks!!

    Heather

    Offline Heather

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #6 on: April 09, 2008, 08:34:43 AM »
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  • THat is a very interesting and totally logical explanation of the 'ramener outre' Trudi, and clarifies it for me- many thanks!!

    Heather

    Offline keith.bartlam.3

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #7 on: January 19, 2015, 09:50:27 AM »
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  • Effect d’ Ensemble and Ramener Outre

    One should ONLY use the spur as in the procedure of the Effect d' Ensemble to achieve Ramener Outre,  I use it on my VERY dominant 18 yr old Brood mare who likes to do her own thing when out on a hack, and it works a treat! A soft pinching of both spurs JUST BEHIND the girth with a SOFT holding hand on the snaffle rein (NOT PULLING) together has the effect of causing a submissive response from the horse whenever they are tense or resisting. Timing is EVERYTHING! The moment you feel a resistance you must apply the EE immediately so the horse associates the resistance it is demonstrating, with the "penalty" of being asked to submit. We are trying to create a situation between us both of her "Avoiding" being corrected, but she has to "Behave" to avoid the correction. The actual correction is NOT painful to the horse, just uncomfortable. The Pinching just behind the girth is a nerve pressure point that affects the nerves travelling from the front legs , through the chest, and up the neck towards the Poll. It causes tingling similar to when your arm goes "dead" if you lay on it in an odd position. Once the pressure from the spur is removed the tingling stops. The "Pinching with the Spur can be as light as a brush on the fur which to the educated horse is seen as "Threatening" action "Behave or Else the EE will be per-longed until a halt is achieved. At the beginning of a training session especially in the wide open fields, you might need to do this every 2 or 3 strides, but gradually as the minutes go by and she accepts I'm "Heard Leader" and not her....we come to an amicable understanding (for that session at least until the next one!) I hold the casting vote! This is as much for my safety and for her's, as quivering with anticipatory excitement of a Gallop, seems to throw all caution to the wind for her! Ramener Outre is only ridden momentarily, (using the aids for EE to achieve it and NOT a strong pull backwards on the reins which would truly upset her even more)....then using the snaffle rein ONLY AND GENTLY in a pulsing UPWARDS direction  lift the neck back up, but still keeping the Ramener ask for the correct height of the neck so that the Poll is now the highest point, the back is lifted under you and swinging (in walk or trot). Make sure that your curb rein is in a LIGHT contact too with your fingers OPEN on it ready to close the fingers as you lift IN CASE you loose the Ramener when you ask for the lifting of the neck on the snaffle Rein. (Hold the reins of the double  a la Fillis its easier to achieve) The fingers on the Curb rein NEED to be open so that they can be closed, otherwise if you were to keep them closed there would be no way you could activate the curb rein! This needs to be first taught in the school environment in all 3 gaits before using it out in the fields. At the same time as applying the Spur and holding/ a fixed rein....(remember NOT pulling) you MUST engage your Core muscles with slight tilt of the pelvis forward  as in a pelvic tuck (from the bottom of the pelvis NOT from the top/waist!) and wrapping round of your upper thighs. This has the effect of blocking the horses movement forwards. It is a Momentary Combined Effect of Rein, Spur and Your Body which when done to perfection lasts half a second and some would call this a "Half Halt" It  requires a VERY good control of your body and limbs, good timing which is like lightning in making the correction to be effective. The procedure can also be used JUST BEFORE a planned movement to alert the horse of an impending new movement such as a change in gait etc AND is a Call To Attention) You will know when you have submission when the horse become light and swing again in her back under you. As the horse becomes accustomed to the procedure it is only necessary to "Brush the Fur with your spurs and Engage more strongly your already engaged core whilst maintaining a Soft Contact tells the horse a Full EE "Might " happen! (Those that don't know how to engage their Core  should do Pilates Classes to access their core and strengthen it)  This is true lightnes and can be done in a 3 gaits at any time . If you want to come to a Halt for  an opportunity to rest or just stand still to diffuse a "Situation" carry on with the EE procedure until you get a full Halt. ( Note, it is NOT the normal way to do a Halt, but a corrective way) AFTER you get the Halt, let the reins slip through your fingers to the buckle, and THEN release the pinching of your spurs.The horse will lower her neck chewing on the bit in complete submission. Stay in halt for 2 or 3 minutes very quiet to allow the Adrenalin coursing through her body to subside, At this stage you will have a VERY attentive and increasingly sensitive horse Truly listening to you and willing to do anything you ask. Lightness of your aids at this point is even more important so all your aiding from now on must be moderated and subtle to the slightest nudge with the leg/spur etc. Don't break the trust you have now got through submission as it will be seen by the horse as bullying and the resistance will return. This procedure is not necessary on most horses, but some very dominant ones especially Lead Alpha Mares (like Mine) and some very dominant Stallions benefit from the procedure. To ride it for more than 2 or 3 strides at a time,is an error and would be the same as Rolkur. Page106/7 of Dom Diogo de Briganca "Dressage in the French Tradition" on the subject is ambiguous and could lead the reader to understand that up to a third to a quarter of the lesson should be ridden in RO in all three gaits. I don't believe he intended the reader to understand it that way. I do not think that is ever necessary and is surely Rolkur!
    « Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 12:05:28 PM by keith.bartlam.3 »

    Offline Cobstar

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 05:04:46 PM »
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  • Thank you for an interesting and comprehensive explanation of the theory and practice from your practical experience.

    This is just the sort of discussion I enjoyed on Heather's Yahoo list and other classical dressage lists. Thank you.

    Offline thecatsmother

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #9 on: January 20, 2015, 03:05:34 PM »
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  • I do think it's a tad unfortunate that in this post "EE" means applying a deliberate punishment though....
    Lesha, nr Exeter, Devon UK

    Chocky, Star, Port, & Hal (all RIP), Arai, Augusta, Ash, Foggy, Daisy Doglet & Finnegan

    Offline Cobstar

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #10 on: January 20, 2015, 04:12:58 PM »
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  • I rather think the French term may predate our beloved Enlightened Equitation.

    Used in the correct manner by an educated and enlightened rider I can see a purpose as described by keith. It is not the ongoing torture of rollkur but shortlived aids to gain desired response.

    I would use different terminology as the intent behind correction and submission can be misinterpreted as a form of punishment which isn't my understanding of the purposem

    Offline thecatsmother

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 04:43:00 PM »
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  • If it's something which is applied with the intention of reducing future occurrences of a particular behaviour ("the horse associates the resistance it is demonstrating with the "penalty" of being asked to submit [...]) then that is the scientific definition of a punishment.
    Lesha, nr Exeter, Devon UK

    Chocky, Star, Port, & Hal (all RIP), Arai, Augusta, Ash, Foggy, Daisy Doglet & Finnegan

    Offline ros

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #12 on: January 20, 2015, 08:13:03 PM »
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  • Which is precisely why terminology is so incredibly important.

    Also, to me, submission should not be described as a penalty: it should be considered a demonstration of acceptance and willingness to co-operate.

    Offline Claire

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #13 on: January 24, 2015, 02:00:58 PM »
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  • i just looked up the definition of outre

    so if outre is excessive etc, i would read that as emphasising the ramener..

    and do we not have to think about this combining with flexions? in a flexion its nothing like rollkur of course, the bending is to the side....

    Offline Cobstar

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    Re: Is "ramener outre " the equivalent of rollkur?
    « Reply #14 on: January 24, 2015, 08:49:43 PM »
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  • Did a quick read up but nothing extensive as work stuff is preoccupying me for another week or so. This was part of Baucher's early work which he moved away from. The work aimed at circus performances.

    I would like to see it ridden by a current exponent  to form a view on whether it was appropriate and had a place in enlightened modern equitation