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Offline epona

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Re: Fred's Blog
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2007, 07:44:30 PM »
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    No, but around about the same time he acquired a badly broken lower jaw bone that appears never to have had veterinary attention. My guess is that there is a connection!

    Holy Crap!! :o :o  Poor boy, didnt have the best start in life did he  :(  I do so hope you can fix him Richard  :hug:
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    Offline Danni

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #31 on: July 25, 2007, 08:35:32 PM »
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  • I hope the poor love pulls through Richard, he's come through so much already.  I have everything crossed for him!

    capalldubh

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #32 on: July 26, 2007, 03:15:53 PM »
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  • Richard, I've been following your blog too - and have my fingers crossed for Fred - I really hope you see some positive signs over the next few days.

    Offline Diane Smith

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #33 on: July 26, 2007, 05:26:40 PM »
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  • Oh bless him, I'm willing him to pull through too

    Good Luck, you both very much deserve it  :hug: :hug: :hug:

    Offline sarasfly

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #34 on: July 26, 2007, 10:42:43 PM »
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  • Good luck to your little boy!  Been on tenderhooks waiting for the outcome!  ;)

    TashaKat

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #35 on: July 28, 2007, 08:33:49 AM »
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  • All the best to Fred, it's so good to hear that things are looking better :D

    Those x-rays are  :o though, thank you for putting them up.



    Offline tubby

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #36 on: July 28, 2007, 10:26:14 AM »
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  • Sending you all best wishes for a successful outcome , thank goodness you took him on Richard at least now he has a chance.

    Offline luckyrider

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #37 on: August 09, 2007, 03:18:26 PM »
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  • Thanks for the latest update, Richard.  Bet you feel he's doing your head in with his ups and downs and unexplained setbacks... I am glad to hear he's emerging well from this latest nastiness.

    Is there any chance he has whatever Marengo's Lutine had with her gut?  EPSM or something???  You can read about it on Lutine's blog...
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    Offline rvialls

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #38 on: August 09, 2007, 03:36:37 PM »
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  • It's possible, but I don't think so. EPSM usually has accompanying muscle tension problems and he doesn't seem to have any of that. All he has is the tendency to severe laminitis attacks and an inability to keep weight on - combined with stressy behaviour and an obsession with eating.

    My current theory is that whatever happened to him while he was still in Germany involved him being on lots of bute. I have a photo of him just prior to that period and he looks exceptionally well and in good condition. By the time he arrived in the UK he was in poor condition and the previous owner and I both struggled to get condition back onto him. I've recently got hold of his veterinary notes from when he was in Germany and it looks like they talk about an endoscope examination of his gut - I've got a freind who I hope will be able to translate them properly from the german but if I'm right then even back then there was a question mark about his gut function.

    So my theory is that the sheer quantity of bute he had (he was on bute for months after he arrived in the UK as well) has just wrecked his gut. Chances are his gut is full of ulcers and as a result he's just not absorbing food properly - hence his inability to hold condition. It would also explain him eating like mad as eating constantly would help to reduce the discomfort from the ulcers.

    That's why I'm trying to get him off bute altogether as fast as I humanely can in the hope that I can then heal his gut. I've had good success in the past with stomach ulcers using things like Global Herbs Acid-X and slippery elm powder, but if the damage is bad it can take months to heal.

    Richard

    Offline Marengo

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #39 on: August 10, 2007, 12:44:33 PM »
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  • Blimey, sorry to see your guy's been having a bad time of it.  :( He's lucky to have you though.

    Richard, I had a really interesting conversation with Nicola Tyler from Top Spec about the way medications and poor feeding can wreck the horse's intestines and cause all manner of problems. She was convinced that Lutine's systemic problems, which include EPSM, were caused by the veterinary treatment she received for the suspect navicular diagnosis, including steroids and NSAIDs, plus the high cereal diet she'd been on. She also said there was a possibility the gut may not ever fully heal. Basically, the drugs and inappropriate diet resulted in 'leaky gut', increased permeability, and a whole cascade of other issues, including reduced ability to synthesise and use minerals, a negative impact on the immune system, the EPSM, and laminitis also ensued. I once found an awesome article on intestinal permeability and it's relationship with immune problems, which I think I posted on the Horse Health section, or maybe on this section, a while ago. Perhaps someone remembers it and can track down the thread? But it was also linked to laminitis in that the main issue seems to be antigens - such as only partially digested nutrient molecules - getting through into the blood stream and causing toxicity. Now, I don't fully understand the laminitis mechanism, but I do believe there's been some suggestion that circulating toxins can somehow trigger an MMP cascade in themselves and that's somehow different to glucose/insulin related laminitis. That would shift the focus of his management from managing his NSC exposure to preventing toxins getting through his gut wall - healing the gut wall, providing immune support to help the body deal effectively with antigens, feeding something to bind to toxins in the gut and have them expelled safely (mannan oligosaccharide - MOS - will do that, for example).  However, I'm really not any kind of expert in laminitis so this can just be dismissed as ill informed rambling!  :D

    Offline rvialls

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #40 on: August 11, 2007, 10:08:48 AM »
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  • It's certainly not ill-informed rambling, I'd agree with everything you say. I'd be very surprised if Fred doesn't have a leaky gut and my one regret is that I didn't start him on gut healing supplements earlier (sadly I'd been hung up on trialling some other ideas I had at the time).

    I think we've got a long way to go to understand the relationships between the various things that happen in laminitis, but I think at least some laminitis cases are linked strongly to gut disfunction. My current thinking is that laminitics that tend to be overweight have a problem with nutritional balance, whereas those that tend to be underweight have damaged guts (although there's almost certainly a small minority of cases that don't fit into either camp).

    Richard

    Offline Jolene

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #41 on: August 12, 2007, 01:40:31 PM »
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  • I've been doing some more reading too and came across someone claiming that the reason many laminitics react so badly to chemical deworming is because of their compromised gut.  That the chemicals are meant to pass through without being absorbed (except a few that are designed to) but if you have leaky gut or ulcers that can let the chemicals seep out and cause havoc.  I find a lot of sense in this.  Not sure where I was heading with this, just rambling I suppose.
    Jolene & Handsome
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    Offline rvialls

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #42 on: August 12, 2007, 05:15:46 PM »
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    the chemicals are meant to pass through without being absorbed (except a few that are designed to) but if you have leaky gut or ulcers that can let the chemicals seep out and cause havoc

    That's very much the way I'm thinking too. I've always been concerned about the potential for side effects with wormers and I've come across cases where worming has triggered a laminitis attack. The leaky gut model would seem to explain that well.

    There's a really good test in humans for leaky gut that involved getting the person to drink a solution full of lots of polyethylene glycol (which is pretty non-toxic) molecules of different sizes. You then do a blood test and see what the maximum size of PEG molecules is that made it into the blood - from which you can deduce how bad the leaky gut is. It would be interesting to do this test on some laminitics - not sure whether any researchers have tried it?

    Richard

    Offline Julea

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #43 on: August 28, 2007, 11:15:07 AM »
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  • How is he doing now ? , just being nosey ..... sorry !

    Offline rvialls

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    Re: Fred's Blog
    « Reply #44 on: August 29, 2007, 08:11:06 PM »
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  • He's doing well. He had a slight set-back over the weekend when I decided to trim him. I don't think the trim itself was a problem, but I think maybe having to stand on three legs for the trim made things worse. He seems to be getting over that and I hope to start turning him out for a few hours at grass next week.

    On the whole, I'm pretty pleased with him given that the vet was hinting at putting him to sleep only five or six weeks ago. He's off bute and happy wondering around the yard in his boots.

    Richard