Philippe Karl

[shoveltrash]

I also suppose that it depends to some extent on your expertise as a rider, as you say, as people like Phillipe Karl, Heather, etc. are going to be able to get better balance from a horse faster than some little ol' rider like me! 

or ME!!!

standing still we're find, and seem pretty well balanced......either side.
this is the same in hand as mounted.
but as soon as we move forward, under saddle OR in-hand, he's wanting to *turn* in the direction of the flexion.  perhaps it is displacing his hips to the opposite side?
the only thing that keeps us straight in-hand is the fact that my body position dictates he stay straight - so that he can't turn on the inside shoulder.  but it's a struggle.  
in-hand work without any type of 'flexion' is fine.  s/i, l/y, etc.

please DO make a dvd Jenny!!!

Christina i've got "Another Horsemanship," it is full of excellent info!  some of it a bit over my head .  i tended to agree with all of it, in theory -- but cannot figure out how to *DO* something from a book! :blink:



 

[shoveltrash]

oops!  double posted.

but i'll take this opportunity to post something i was sent, just to *see* what you guys think!

"taking" gesture with the reins -- to generate a stretching/reaching response to the rider's release of the rein.

teaching a young horse:  with the bridle on, standing in front of the horse, you can take the bit rings in your fingers and lift up on one until the horse responds by chewing.  it may have to be very firm pressure, and or a  little shake or vibration of the bit to generate an initial response, depending on the sensitivity of your horse.  when he does respond by chewing, if you slowly release the bit ring and allow the horse the opportunity to lower his head towards, you, he chews until he tries to push his nose out towards you and down towards the ground.  reward, praise, treat, whatever you do to let your horse know that he did the right thing.

same thing can be done from the saddle at halt.  lift the rein and massage the corners of his lips until he responds by chewing & stretching into the bit.  you can do this with the rein lower & lower until he reponds to just a squeeze on the rein in the normal riding position with a chewing and reaching posture......

does this sound right?  because i remember PK using an upward *lift* to shift weight back & elevate the head/neck carriage.  this almost seems the opposite???  like weighting the forehand?

thoughts?

[christuris]

but as soon as we move forward, under saddle OR in-hand, he's wanting to *turn* in the direction of the flexion. perhaps it is displacing his hips to the opposite side?

This triggered a memory of Racinet saying re bending (not flexions) that the inside rein needs to be held as an indirect rein, meaning it points to the outside hip as opposed to pointing to the inside hip (direct rein).  This prevents the quarters from swinging out, apparently, but I'm blowed if I know what that would do to his direction of travel!  Maybe he's stiff?  Are you raising the inside hand as you do this?  Could you experiment with this concept and let us know?  

the only thing that keeps us straight in-hand is the fact that my body position dictates he stay straight - so that he can't turn on the inside shoulder. but it's a struggle.

Then it's not French Lightness if it's a struggle!  Something's gone wonky...  

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
www.AlphabetRanch.com


 

[christuris]

lift the rein and massage the corners of his lips until he responds by chewing & stretching into the bit.  you can do this with the rein lower & lower until he reponds to just a squeeze on the rein in the normal riding position with a chewing and reaching posture......

Hmmm PK does do exactly what is in that quote but with another horse that gets about 2 mins on the DVD. With the second horse who is one that is inclined to hollow, he uses a similar exercise to get the horse to lower his head and stretch the topline.

I don't remember that in the video (more viewing tonight, I guess!)  I just remember him getting the response from the bay horse, licking and chewing, and then releasing so that the horse's head drops into a relaxed vertical position.  The reason he did that with this particular horse, the bay, was because he was inclined to lean on the bit.  Every time the horse leaned on the bit, PK would raise the head with his hands and then release.

I don't think it was made clear enough when and where to use this technique, and no I am not an expert, but I would be worried about some people trying to use this technique. I think it could be badly abused.

I'm no expert either, and I also worry about unsupervised amateurs using the technique, although I'm encouraged to hear a couple of people saying that their horses have improved greatly after using it.  But I thought it was clear why he was raising the head in the bay's case.

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
www.AlphabetRanch.com

[shoveltrash]

i think what dufuswimp quoted is well worth re-stating.  i had not read this on the other thread (obviously i need to go check it out!).

however i for one did understand why he raised the bay horse's head.  PK stated it pretty plainly - 'heavy on the forehand/laying on the reins'
this really wouldn't be appropriate for all horse IMHO, and only at certain stages of training.
the *other* (inverted) horse did get very very little coverage in that first dvd.  and i felt that it was probably the more 'common' of the two.  

maybe i should just give up this stuff.
i obviously am not doing something right - all i've done under saddle is "raise the inside rein" per PK.  

at least it's interesting to watch & read about.  

[christuris]

maybe i should just give up this stuff.
i obviously am not doing something right - all i've done under saddle is "raise the inside rein" per PK

Can you explain exactly what you have been doing and for what purpose?  Also what symptoms the horse exhibits before, during and after these exercises?  Maybe therein lies the problem and it would help to have a qualified trainer in this group help you out?  We could all learn, because I always wonder about watching these videos when we don't have someone knowledgeable to explain as we view it.

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
www.AlphabetRanch.com

[shoveltrash]

Can you explain exactly what you have been doing and for what purpose? Also what symptoms the horse exhibits before, during and after these exercises?

Christina - i've been doing the flexions in hand, per PK dvd, to soften/mobilize the jaw, release tension......my boy carries alot of tension in his jaw/neck, so i thought it would help.  i then did them under saddle, but probably he is not NEAR balanced enough yet to do this type of work in motion (green greenie).  *THAT i believe is my mistake*
symptoms before:  occasional teeth grinding, tense neck/jaw, resistant to bend
symptoms during:  definite release of some tension, if only from stretching each side of the neck
symptoms after:  same as above, more willing to relax over topline & bend.

interestingly, i had a PK deja vu experience today - i had my second session with the local cowboy reining/cutting horse trainer.  this guy does the very same flexions (minus the bit chomping), with lots of emphasis on softness.  that a horse must be SOFT (read: relaxed/free of tension) to be able to move freely & be taught to move each body part upon request.
it was this that made me realize i was probably asking too much too soon from my horse - because he needs to be balanced at halt first (which he struggled with today, but got better).

this guy also trains to mobilize the shoulders - i.e. turning on the haunches, to shift more weight to the hindquarters & 'lighten' the horse.  well, DEJA VU!
astride my horse he says:  "i am going to lift my hands high - i know, i know what you are going to say....." -- no really, he did NOT!
he was doing what PK does
there was a visible shift to my horse's point of balance backwards, and he easily/handily crossed his front legs to execute the movement!

so - what i'm trying to take from this are these goals:
(which seem to correspond PK)
softness
lightness
release of tension
a GRADUAL increase in balance work, with flexions

 

[christuris]

WOW, Trish!  What a wonderful experience.  Strangely enough, it was a local cowboy trainer who turned me on to Racinet and I knew instantly that this was what I had been searching for after I had read John Swire's Anglo French Horsemanship and wondered how on earth I was going to find out about this kind of horsemanship locally!

Also, someone told me recently that they would much rather have their young horse started in Western horsemanship than anything else, and if they mean THIS kind of training that you and I have come across, then I would wholeheartedly agree!

I think you're on the right track, and it's just wonderful that you had that lightbulb moment with this trainer.  I don't think I'd be looking for anyone else!  Treasure him!

A lot of my in-hand work with Xino (as a two year old) has been doing lots of bending and now he's doing all kinds of lateral movements.  I take him up the road and ask for shoulder-in as we walk along, just a few steps here and there, changing to circles, serpentines and whatever I can think of to make it interesting for him.  He has to focus on me -- it's not all just an amble up the road!  I think this kind of work will pay handsome dividends down the road when he goes under saddle.

One thing that I always wonder about is saddle fit or pinching tack.  I don't care how good the work is, horses can get really tense when they have to deal with that, and flexions won't help at all.  So you have to look at everything before something is tossed aside as useless.  That's another reason I think we should have someone helping us with this kind of work.

I'm thinking of switching temporarily to this cowboy fellow just to get Xino started, rather than my French/Portuguese style trainer...makes me excited just thinking about the possibilities!  I'd forgotten all about him too!


Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
www.AlphabetRanch.com

[Taliessin]

I've just read in the latest issue of Cavallo (an excellent German magazine) that PK is planning a further teacher training course for the beginning of 2007, see his website www.philippekarl.de in case anyone is interested.

[christuris]

I've just read in the latest issue of Cavallo (an excellent German magazine) that PK is planning a further teacher training course for the beginning of 2007, see his website www.philippekarl.de in case anyone is interested.

I think it's a three year course, if I'm not mistaken, at his place, with your own horse(s).

Christina
Indian Hills, Colorado
www.AlphabetRanch.com