Philippe Karl

[shoveltrash]

hello all - as some already know, i bought the four dvd set of Philippe Karl's (based solely on Heather & other member's recommendations!)

what a great thing to have!!!!  he is an IMPECCABLE rider (and looks rather NICE in his leather breeches! )

it also makes me very aware that there is a LOT i don't understand, in regards to the French riding method.

so i thought i'd start up a discussion - for those folk who might be interested in knowing more (like me!), or those of you who can enlighten us on Karl's espoused methods.

i'll start:  i'm really stuck on the first dvd....which covers lungeing, encouraging a "lively mouth", flexibility of the neck, and intro to training on two tracks.
the neck flexibility exercises (flexions) have already made a difference with my horse!  it has helped to release alot of *tension*, tension that Karl says simply cannot exist if the neck is stretched on one side or the other.  
i am trying to utilize this bending method while working on two tracks.
i'm doing something a bit wrong i think .
the flexion - say, to the left - causes a displacement of the hindquarters to the right.  so that i find that doing exercises like leg yield & shoulder in are easier (moving the horse's body away from the direction of bend).  but when i try to move his body in the direction of the bend things come apart.
he just turns!  like i'm riding him by the nose :(
could be *me*
my position is not confirmed, nor polished.

something i have been unable to absorb from PK is how he describes weighting the seat for lateral work.

at one point he compared it to riding a bicycle, in regards to where your weight should be placed (i.e. seatbones).

i am not getting it.  partly because i am taught to advance/weight the inside seatbone for bend.

anybody care to expound on this?
so ok....enough of my rambling.  i really need to go watch the OTHER dvds (3&4).

Heather i hope you'll be able to have the time to provide some input as well, because i feel that your expertise could help in clarifying things :blush:  

[Heather]

I think go and watch the other DVD's first Trish, as I didnt like the first two at all, and only saw them a couple of years ago. Then I thought I would buy the whole lot anyway, because it is useful to have such DVD's to discuss with students. When I saw three and four, I was astonished at the quality of the work.

I have to confess that I need to watch the first two again in depth, to see how he arrives at the work in the last two, but it is very Baucherist, a lot of raising of the head. Oliveira also professed to be Baucherist, as does Luis Valenca, but you never see Oliveira in the videos I have of him doing this, and I only ever see Luis doing the flexions of the jaw, not the raising of the head.

To be honest, I havent taken a lot of notice of how he advocates aiding the lateral work- I still do what I have always done because I was taught it by Desi Lorent, also a Baucherist, and it has worked on every horse.

But the raising of the head which I so disliked in the early videos, he shows in the third the effect it has on the hind end, to transfer the weight.

I am not sure how this would work or translate in less skilled hands, which is why I am going to try to go to Provence to watch him work and understand better.

I suppose I do not so much rate the spoken commentary as much as admire the ridden work. Personally, I do not like Philippe's actual riding as much as Hans Heinrich Meyer zu Strohen, or Reiner Klimke's son Michael, who are two of my all time heros- he is 'busy' by comparison, but you cannot fault the results of his work, which are classically exemplary in every sense, but I feel I need to go see for myself how he arrives at it!!

Hope this helps-

Heather

[silverdun]

mebbe someone else will answer?

[shoveltrash]

thanks for the response Heather.....
you inspired me to have a look at 3 & 4!
#4 really brings it all together - helping to make #1 (and the head raising/lateral flexions) make much more sense.
#3 is just awesome.
really truly puts to shame all those competitive Grand Prix riders.  i have a tape of the most recent Olympics, with mostly MISERABLE looking horses, overflexed & tense.

i really like how Karl emphasises that 'poll flexion' is LAST in training.  and overflexion is BAD.  his piaffe is ridden with the nose very much in front of the vertical.

i hesitate to criticise his riding :( , because i SURELY cannot do better :lol:
the *end result* of his training, demonstrated in the "one year later" video footage in #4 is wonderful i think.

#2 is the one where i got confused with the seat aids in lateral work :blink:
i need to watch it again.
but in #4 this statement is made: "always sit in the direction of movement"
hmmm.......

I am going to try to go to Provence to watch him work and understand better.

I WANNA GO!!!!!! :(  

[Sonora]

I think I need to get the dvds    all that just went woosh! over my head :lol:

[shoveltrash]

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/vie...c.php?t=79672&hlink to discussion of french methodighlight=philippe+karl

interesting discussion here......
because what they are debating is exactly what i picked up from the PK dvds.
i remember Jaeme/pintopiaffe saying how the French method is about riding 'front to back' and the germanic 'back to front'

i think it's a combo of both myself  

[shoveltrash]

pioneer you won't regret it!

[pintopiaffe]

Ack--noooooo... good Lord, at least I HOPE I didn't say front to back! :blush:

French school is balance BEFORE movement... german is balance through movement.

And many really top riders/teachers/trainers are somewhere in the middle--changing the approach for the specific horse.

BUT... yes, a real Baucherist is going to be sure that the poll and jaw are released before ever moving up a gait.  (i.e. at halt before walking, at walk before trotting etc.)

Now I'm very interested in the videos as the work we are doing right now is very 'up' and up and more up... sit and more sit as well... but very specific flexion-RELEASE and riding the horse very up in front.  (of course--that's what it feels like, I've no idea what it actually LOOKS like.  :ouch: )  

[Linda Baia]

i remember Jaeme/pintopiaffe saying how the French method is about riding 'front to back' and the germanic 'back to front'

 

That was ME who wrote this ...    I got told off by PP  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I do not get at all the weight aids for lateral work.

SO I re-read Heather, and she does not give any details. So I read a French Author, who says to remain centered on your sadle.

It makes sense for me. Until I get the right feel for the lateral work. I am better off remaining centered instead off "wiggling all over the saddle  

I was not impressed by PK raising of the head, I found his early work to far away from the work we do with Linda. I guess, Linda, just like Iverzon is worked according to the training scale:

Rythm
suppleness
contact
impulsion
Straightness
Collection

Anyway, I have not seen the 3rd and 4th DVDs. I am waiting foir them for my birthday!
 

[Heather]

Hi All,

I reckon I am very Baucherist in my riding techniques/aids, but tend to follow the German 'scales of training' in my actual training patterns, with lateral work in walk, from the French school also thrown in.

I think in my book I said with regard to lateral work, that I do not think about shifting the weight in the direction of the movement, but by using the leg with the swing of the belly- say, in half pass right, using the outside leg by closing it with the swing of the belly will automatically advance the inside hip diagonally forwards in the direction of the movement and most riders have enough to think about when learning lateral work, without complicating things that happen by themselves, if the leg aids are applied correctly!

What I hate to see most, is the rider, shovelling the seatbone across the saddle exaggeratedly in the direction of the movement, and which I see riders being taught. It blocks the horse and is so ugly to watch, and completely unnecessary!!

I try to sit in a way in which I move as little as possible, in that the aids, at least on a trained horse, are as near invisible as possible to the onlooker. I am getting older and stiffer now, and may not be as still as I used to be, but this is why I want to get out and do something with the Iberian boys, before I start to seize up with advancing anno domini!!!

Heather

[shoveltrash]

i remember Jaeme/pintopiaffe saying how the French method is about riding 'front to back' and the germanic 'back to front'

That was ME who wrote this ...  I got told off by PP   

WHOOPS! :lol:

thanks SO much for clarifying Jaeme!!!!
(i just knew i didn't have it quite right, terminology-wise)

Heather your post speaks VOLUMES.  too much emphasis on the SEAT/'weighted seatbones', and i believe there is risk that the seat itself becomes corrupted!
my own instructor believe that with correct use of the leg aids, the seat will automatically be 'correct.'

i think maybe i *think* about this too much :lol:

Jaeme you would LOVE these dvds - i can guarantee it.
i've always been very reticent in regards to French training....but seeing PK's *finsihed product* (his 20 y/o Luso stallion was just the perfect picture of harmony IMHO) has convinced me to be more open-minded.

I was not impressed by PK raising of the head, I found his early work to far away from the work we do with Linda. I guess, Linda, just like Iverzon is worked according to the training scale:

Rythm
suppleness
contact
impulsion
Straightness
Collection

Muriel, i wasn't impressed by the head raising either - but seeing the 4th dvd (and the horses from the 1st one, one year later) put it into perspective.  i don't think all horses NEED it.  'heavy on the forehand' horses, yes.
Iverzon most definitely does not fall into that category.
also, in the 4th dvd PK expounds on the training scale (which is the very similar to the above), but uses a circular model - instead of a pyramid.  makes alot of sense!
i need to watch it again to write the stuff down.

i posted the link to the UDBB thread because i really liked the second post:

...lifting the rein without pulling on it stimulates the horse's chewing reflex, which in turn removes the tension in the jaw by default. When the hand is immediately soft and following while the horse is chewing, the horse becomes habituated to chewing (swallowing) when the rein is engaged. Thus, requests for chewing the reins from the hands are met with relaxation rather than bracing.

Secondly, because the action is on the corners of the mouth more than the tongue or bars of the mouth, this is a more comfortable feeling for the horse -- further promoting relaxation.

this alone - the 'raising of the inside hand' - seems to have made an enormous difference in my horse's relaxation & bending!
 

[shoveltrash]

ps - link to site that has the four dvds:

PK dvds

[Heather]

Yes Trish, isnt Philippe's 20 year old stallion just the epitome of harmony and expressive work without tension?!! It blew me away watching it, and to be honest, his riding of this horse is indeed, exemplary. Also bears out my theory, that the better trained the horse, the easier it is to sit to, and so even the seat improves!!

Heather

[pintopiaffe]

dear LORD those videos are dear...  Does anyone know of a cheaper place to get perhaps the box-set?

I'm afraid the set is insanely out of reach.  If you had to pick ONE of them to take out of context,  which would you pick?

BTW, last I knew, JC was in North Carolina.  He does miraculous things with osteopathy.  If anyone can catch him, I would.  I'm not sure you can entirely 'get' what he is doing if just auditing.  Sometimes you have to be feeling the horse...  So many horses/riders who come in a clinic situation have to start almost over from scratch.   It's not always particularly glamourous.

My teacher is the same.  We've gone from really playing at fun stuff to w/t lessons on the 20m circle.     The difference is in the degree of perfection--or, if you will, collection/elevation/throughness--demanded.   I've gone from thinking I knew a bit about riding after 30 years, to knowing I know nothing.   :ouch:  

[Claire]

slightly off topic, but still phillippe karl, i found this on clipshack this morning:

http://www.clipshack.com/Clip.aspx?key=F9D1153CF85A2CFB

him doing piaffe & levade ...