And Yet More Clicker Training Questions

[smileyginger]

I had begun rudimentary clicker with JJ a few weeks ago... we worked on charging the clicker and then a bit of target work.  For his target I use a dog toy - a nice sized pimply ball with a handle attached.  He seemed to be getting it - we did a few tiny sessions of a couple minutes a piece, and then I would do something else, groom, etc.  As soon as I would bring out the pimply ball he would start touching it.

My reservation is this... he is out 24/7 with two other geldings, one who is also 24/7 and one is a turn in/out.  JJ is lowest in the hierarchy (sp?) - he gets all the hay he can eat but when it comes to grain, he can get pushed out of the way by the other two glommy guys  THEREFORE (wheeze) JJ seems to get very VERY excited about **Foooooood**
The day after our first session we were in the stall and he was about ready to pop!  "wheresthetreatwantmytreatclickmeclickmeclickmegivememytreeeaaaattt!" and was quite the mug-a-tron.  Basically I didn't acknowledge it - I would turn my face away from him or gently nudge his head off of me until he stopped, then click and treat.  But I'm wondering if he might be one of those horses that might do better with pats and praise.  

He's obviously a very smart boy but he is a bit of a snurfler (you know, snurfles your arms, shoulders, hair, bum) anyway - while I like the affectionate attitude, I need to keep him at a more comfortable distance.  Any suggestions on how to transition more towards praise and pets from food treats?

[Numbat]

Hi Justine. Don't worry, the way your boy feels about food is a plus, not a minus.  If I were you, I'd stick to the food treats, because they're obviously going to be very motivating for this horse. You'll probably get quite a bit of pushiness and anxiety about the food to start with, but as he gains more understanding and confidence in the way the game works, he'll learn to wait a bit. You can always make that a lesson in itself, clicking for calmness & being in his own space. Some clicker trainers make this their first lesson, by, say, clicking for the horse turning his head away, or by apparently offering food but then taking it away if the horse reaches out, and clicking & treating the instant the horse keeps his head to himself. That one seems a bit like teasing to me, but it works for them, and does teach the horse to control himself and work for the click instead of mugging.


Do make sure that you are very clear about the rules of the game. Hold the target out away from yourself and the treats. Only feed after a click; only feed with your hand where you want his nose to be, away from your body. Work from behind a barrier until you have this mugging stage over, so you can just step away. If you don't feel unsafe with the snurfling (lovely word!) you can let him snurfle, just don't let him ever get treats that way. Keep your movements calm and clear, so you don't make him cross and confused.

Remember that this work-for-treats deal is new to him. He's not yet sure that you won't just give him the treats (you probably always have before, whenever you had any!), and he's also not sure how long this new bounty is going to last. Once he understands how the new deal works, you'll probably find that he will work hard at finding out how to earn a click & treat.

[smileyginger]

Thanks!  I've really been worried about this.  He's not a big boy, even for an Arab, but one good conk of that snurfly head could put me on the floor.   I was so concerned, seeing how he was with food that I didn't want to frustrate him.  He really is the low boy on the totem pole when it comes to the grub. Before we started clicker, I would generally save treat time for after work so I think he was floored that he was getting a treat before he was even ridden and got very torqued up about it.

Do you have any suggestions for a 'barrier' environment?  The stalls in our barn are solid (not the dutch type)  and I don't think I could get permission to screw in eyebolts for a butt chain or other barrier.  I share this stall with a few other people (since J is on full turnout) and I use it mostly for grooming and tacking.  Even the round pen has a gate that is taller than I am.  I've been trying to think of something I could rig up across the stall door opening when the door is slid open that says "don't cross this" but doesn't create the potential for injury.

this is something I am really looking forward to doing.  I have a smart, sensitive boy here and seeing an no one at this barn has ever even heard of clicker training, it's something that only we can do together.

[Numbat]

Couple of 44-gallon drums? One, on its side? That is a problem for you. And given your concerns about frustration it does sound like a good idea to start with a barrier. Is there a field with a fence?

There are two aspects you might want to be careful of. One is just the pushiness about the food, which I'm sure will pass with the proper training. Another is that even when he does understand the game, the horse can get frustrated if he can't understand what you want him to do to earn a click: you're moving too fast or giving confusing signals. On the clickryder list we even have a long "cranky horse" post that is distilled from a lot of people's experiences of this. I got myself kicked in the round pen when I was a few weeks into starting CT - I was going too fast and being a bit pushy myself and he just got fed up. I learned to slow down, have a little pause between "asks", and read the horse better.
 

[stormybaby]

Hi,
Ditto everyhting that has been said so far.  I know from personal experience that certain rewards sent one of my boys bonkers (it was extra strong mints!!!)  You could try using a lower value reward (pony nuts instead of carrots, fresh grass instead of pony nuts etc.)  I have found that this can help, especially in the early stages with a very food motivated horse!  It really is a bonus that he's food motivated, you just might want to try "grading" your rewards, so maybe he gets the piece of carrot as a super reward at the end of the session?

Just an idea, esp. if it's difficult for you to have a barrier between you.