Long Backs

[nicjenpat]

Hi

Just wondered if you all agreed with our local 'oracal' that horses with long backs can never achieve sufficient engagement to work at top level.  (just been watching the video of Pierre, and one of those seemed a little long backed to me.  Jen

Just to add I am not an EETT (we are working on seperate email addresses, so we can have our own handle)  Jen

[Emma_R]

Well I hope that's not true, being an owner of a long backed horse! Not I think we'll make it to top level but engagement is one of the things I'm struggling with at the moment  :(  

[aramco_trainer]

never say never. More work yes to get them that far but to say never or impossible is def to strong. They are just not as easy as shorter backs. The word never  and can'tdoes not exhist is the horse dictionary unless there are physical problems

[Funky MeerKAT]

Well considering that a lot of the top level horses aren't actually collected and sitting anyway...

But I think there are a few more factors than just a long back, although I too have always been taught that a long back makes collection difficult. If the horse was long backed, but still higher infront I think he would be fine, however if the horse was long backed and high behind this would make things hard for him. Same thing if the horse was built out behind. But on the other hand a back that is too short can be equally difficult.

I think more important that conformation is the horse itself. A horse that wants to do dressage will over come conformation faults, and conformation can be improved somewhat through training.

[Bebe1]

Whilst we're not working anywhere near that level my mare is long backed and depending on how she stands often appears to be slightly croup high (I don't think she actually is, just does a good impression of it).  It is much harder for her to engage behind in the dressage sense of the word, though she is certainly powerful enough through the hindquarters and is capable of doing sliding stops, rollbacks (entirely her doing, I don't ride western) and various airs above the ground when the mood takes her.

The hardest thing for me is putting it all together and creating engagement behind whilst not letting it all flow straight out of the front door. Whether this is because she's long backed, or whether it's because my riding isn't up to scratch I don't know but I've been told by my instructor that she's not an easy horse to ride so it's probably a bit of both. I'm sure it can be done but I think it would be possibly a slower process than in an optimally conformed horse.

[cassiejane]

I have always been led to believe that the ability to engage is not just about the length of the back but also about the flexibility of the loin area and the horses ability to curl (dorsally convex - i think thats right   ) in the lumbar and lumbosacral (joint between Lumbar and sacral area - obviously not the sacrum) area of the spine.  

This allows the horse to bring the hind legs under and engage.

I think a long back makes this harder but not impossible as long as this area is flexible.  Obviously lots of other conformational issues affect this but I have always been told that this is the most important one.

[ghostrider]

I am looking at an unschooled 5/6 year old longish backed mare, whilst started has she has not yet begun regular work.
I though I would try starting work from the ground and, following comments made, would be looking to improve suppleness and muscle tone before undertaking too much ridden work.  What Books would you suggest which would be suitable for a horse (and handler) at this stage.   Pat

[shoveltrash]

i too own a long backed horse.  
i'm told that the training itself is slightly different in the beginning, with an emphasis on strenthening the back FIRST.
encouraging stretching, etc.
i like what cassijane wrote:

...the flexibility of the loin area and the horses ability to curl (dorsally convex - i think thats right  ) in the lumbar and lumbosacral (joint between Lumbar and sacral area - obviously not the sacrum) area of the spine.

but i do not think that long-backed horses can't collect!
(heck my boy did a nice passage today to impress a mirror.... :lol: )

i read somewhere that a good test for this is to *tap* the horses croup, and see if they 'curl' their hindquarters under.  

[Danni]

i read somewhere that a good test for this is to *tap* the horses croup, and see if they 'curl' their hindquarters under.

I think I'd be picking my teeth up off of the stable floor  :ouch: :lol:

Is that something to do with the reflex action (could be an old wives' tale) when you run a pen along their back & they are supposed to dip the muscle away?  Or more like the tapping some people use to teach a horse rythm in piaffe & passage?

There is a reflex point somewhere on the hindquarters if you press at either side, the horse tucks it's bum in.  Not sure if that's at all relevant & my physio wouldn't dare try it with Q.  Her horse does it beautifully, & isn't there one on the belly to make them raise their backs?  Must phone her tomorrow, confirm I'm not talking gibberish!

Not sure it's even relevant but there you go....

[Cloud_cirrus]

As you say Danni, there is a stretch that you can do where you run a finger quite hard down the hindquarters and the horse tucks his bum and sits.  It's sometimes called a key stretch by a friend of mine that does bodywork on horses.

The point under the belly that makes them lift their backs is also interesting.  Someone on a course I was on was complaining that her horse was only 15hh and she wished he was 16hh.  The trainer stood the horse against the boards of the indoor school and pressed the point under the belly.  The boards were about four inches wide and he went up one board in height.  Her point was if the horse was giving his back, she would in effect be riding a 16hh horse.

I've not found a horse that really objects to either, but you'd have to read body language before you attempted it.  You do the bottom one standing very close up to the body so if they did react you wouldn't get the full extension of it, still wouldn't be nice though.

I've got a longish backed horse and am hoping to start doing some in-hand work with him before going under saddle, we had never got to the collection stage as we were mainly working on forwards, it will be interesting to see how he gets on in-hand with this.

[Danni]

Well, I thought I might have been havering, thanks!

I think at the time we tried the 'ket stretch' my horse was still a bit sore, he is a bit 'p*ssy' about being touched.  I can stand perfectly safely right behind him but he's just a b**ch when he feels like it!

If it were properly shown to you by an equine physio or bodyworker, would be quite useful to see if the horse is indeed physically capable.  Unless the horse is in pain they should all manage to a degree, some just take longer & windier roads to get to the finished article... a strong, supple & powerful back.

Btw, I have a loooong hollow back, I maintain I was born that way but the physio insists if I was dedicated & religious about the exercises she would give me it would be strong & not so curvy! :lol:

[Emma_R]

Well considering that a lot of the top level horses aren't actually collected and sitting anyway...

True, there do seem to be quite few that just look like they're doing the right thing (if you don't look too closely) because they have naturally elevated paces.

I think more important that conformation is the horse itself. A horse that wants to do dressage will over come conformation faults, and conformation can be improved somewhat through training.

Pity my longbacked horse also wants to go round the school at 100 miles and hour rather than engage her back end   It's a good point though, the horse's attitude towards the work is probably the most important factor IMO.

It is much harder for her to engage behind in the dressage sense of the word, though she is certainly powerful enough through the hindquarters and is capable of doing sliding stops, rollbacks (entirely her doing, I don't ride western) and various airs above the ground when the mood takes her.

Reading about the airs above the ground reminded me that actually Saff can do a lovely, balance rear when she disagrees with me about something    :lol:

I'm hoping I will be able to get Saff to Advanced level, she can do a reasonable half-pass - it doesn't look very flashy but it's correct (apart from one or two glitches due to muscle problems) and she just did her first flying changes last week   So we should be able to get that far, I don't think she'll go any further though and pirouettes are a bit of a problem at the moment. Then again I would rather go for correctness and try and help my horse become stronger, more supple etc and hopefully improve her quality and length of life as a result but not get as far in competition terms because the horse is not so flashy than win prizes because the horse is doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons   Hence why I like this board and why I'm reading the classical forum!

[shoveltrash]

QUOTE (shoveltrash @ 2 Feb 2006, 11:17 PM)
i read somewhere that a good test for this is to *tap* the horses croup, and see if they 'curl' their hindquarters under. 


I think I'd be picking my teeth up off of the stable floor 

 :( really?  i didn't mean a WHACK.  just a little tap (and not the key stretch thingy).  supposedly not all horses have the physiologicaly ability to *do* the 'curl under.'  the little tap = piaffe/passage rhythm cue i think.

wonder what book that was in?
(loosing my mind :blink: )  

[Bebe1]

There is a reflex point somewhere on the hindquarters if you press at either side, the horse tucks it's bum in. Not sure if that's at all relevant & my physio wouldn't dare try it with Q. Her horse does it beautifully, & isn't there one on the belly to make them raise their backs?

My mare can do both of these, it's part of the work my chiro does on her. I can get her to do the croup stretch when she's in her summer coat but no chance in her winter woollies, I just can't get the right pressure on. I never manage the abdominal stretch but she can do it when someone who knows what they're doing asks.

I've got a longish backed horse and am hoping to start doing some in-hand work with him before going under saddle,

A useful exercise that I did with my mare in the early stages was to walk her in-hand in the school and get her mirroring my body language.  I found that if I lifted my ribcage she would, if I slowed down, she would. If I did both together she effectively half-halted - rebalanced her weight fractionally over her hindquarters.  Do it often enough and it builds muscle which was really helpful for under saddle work.

Pity my longbacked horse also wants to go round the school at 100 miles and hour rather than engage her back end  It's a good point though, the horse's attitude towards the work is probably the most important factor IMO.

Attitude is really important.  I thought my mare loathed dressage and was at the point of giving up completely and just hacking out (which we both enjoy). A friend offered to help me out and with her help and instruction I've got a horse who seems to really enjoy it and tries her heart out for me. I think the problem with other instructors was that their style of teaching and methods just didn't suit my girl and as she didn't understand what was being asked she got cross and unhappy.

Re: 100 miles an hour round the school, it's what my mare preferred to do initially. Whilst forwards is obviously still important the key to getting my mare to engage behind was to slow everything down. Quite difficult to do without losing the forwards and impulsion but once my mare cracked it she realised it was actually much nicer for her and she offers this now. It did take weeks and weeks to become consistent in walk and it's still a bit hit and miss in trot (harder work).
 

[Emma_R]

Re: 100 miles an hour round the school, it's what my mare preferred to do initially. Whilst forwards is obviously still important the key to getting my mare to engage behind was to slow everything down. Quite difficult to do without losing the forwards and impulsion

Before Saff was capable of doing much lateral work my instructor had me doing 'half steps' which was basically a really really slow trot, almost a walk. Saff was so unbalanced and lacked confidence and slowing her down this much helped her balance and then I was able to ask for a few strides of working trot and build on that. This method did mean sacrificing the impulsion to begin with but in Saff's case it worked and as soon as she was more balanced I had no problem getting her forwards with impulsion. As soon as she was able to do a bit of lateral work there was a big improvement - I found the discussion about whether to start the horse off by lots of forwards or by lateral work etc and how this relates to the type of horse you have very interesting, Saff is definately better starting off with a bit of lateral work, if I start of by pushing her forwards too much she just goes too fast and ends up on her forehand. The lateral work also seems to get her 'up' in the shoulder a bit more and I've made a real breakthrough with medium trot through starting flying changes - the changes need a lot of work yet but after working on them for the first time she offered a medium trot I could sit to, softer, better rythym and 'up' in her shoulder instead of progressively faster and more downhill. I'd been trying for ages to improve the medium trot with no success and then hey presto, try something completely different and the medium trot improves  

Ok so that got a bit long and off topic   But I'm finding it fascinating seeing how different horses respond to different exercises - and working out why a certain horse will respond a certain way!

I think the problem with other instructors was that their style of teaching and methods just didn't suit my girl and as she didn't understand what was being asked she got cross and unhappy.

I'm lucky, my instructor is very sympathetic and understands Saff's personality. She's another horse that gets very upset if she doesn't understand something and my instructor works hard to help me communicate to Saff what I want and her confidence in me and in herself has just grown and grown. I wish there were more instructors who looked at why a horse resists rather than assuming they're being naughty  :(