Baucher? Rolkur?!

[Bebe1]

don't pretend to understand the differences and details on this subject, but it has reassured me slightly about how I and my instructor (who to be fair does know what she is doing and trained abroad so is classically inclined) work with my mare -she is a TBxWB and technically would fall into the German school category I suppose. Every article/book etc I have ever read has told me to get the horse going forward, forward, forward, before doing anything else particularly with the front end - with this mare, it just doesn't work. We have found over the years that the best method of getting her to unlock and use herself is to start the sessions with flexing/lateral work like shoulder in etc in walk/trot and getting that lightness/flexion/straightness in the front and then she becomes light to the aids and forward.

Echo!  I do lots of lateral work (though it's very basic) during warm-up, it's what works best for us.  

There's a different emphasis on when the horse should be in self-carriage, and release of the aids... the classic German school would have you always 'holding' or pushing the horse from leg into hand, the French school asks for RELEASE of the aids when the horse is correct.

It's this that my mare really objected to - the "holding".  She really needs the release of the aids, I suppose it makes it much clearer to her what she's done correctly.

 

[ChrissieW]

i would think that a sluggish/lazier horse would probably respond better to a modified German approach

But my mare is exactly this type of horse and definitely needs to be flexed, listening and soft in front before she will go forward.    

Bebe sounds like we have similar horses, Mins definitely reacts more to the release than the hold.

Thanks everyone for your comments and wealth of knowledge, its all fascinating and I will read Charles de Kufny's book with your comments in mind.    My instructor only recommended it to me as she had been reading it and we had been using some of the exercises he recommends in the book and they have worked quite well for some issues, but my understanding is that my instructor picks what she likes and discards other bits.

I really must get Heather's book off my wish list and onto my bookshelf.    

[paulam]

I had absolutely no idea that all the teachers I had were of the german school. I've only ever had one horse that really went for the forward thing, and he was essentially an eventer, great for obstacles (but not for me)

I don't think anyone who's taught me has *ever* understood why they teach forward before flexion. Or why it hasn't worked for me or my horses.

Like Bebe, the hold is the bit that kills me dead, and then my horses.

All the horses I've ridden apart from the one above, have responded better to flexion than forward, even though I could never put them into any particular mode.

However, I am the common denominator, so maybe it's me that understands flexion better than forward?

Whatever, i need to find a teacher who understands what they are teaching. Too many years seeking forward forward forward without being able to harness it at all and wondering what the hell I'm doing wrong.

I've printed this out, it's been a HUGE lightbulb moment for me.

thanks guys.

[shoveltrash]

So then I met JC Racinet. And in the first lecture, he wrote in big letters on the board: "An aid should never *maintain*. It can change, shape or modify, but never MAINTAIN."

and THIS is the big problem i have with 'german' push push push & HOLD riding!  the horse should *maintain* itself!  Racinet is SO right
what great posts......
alot to think about.
i'll admit to not being savvy in regards to "flexions."  i've never had an instructor teach this, nor the strictly french/portuguese style of riding talked about here.  there is a sad lack of this type of riding/teaching in my part of the country.  so - i am loath to just go out & start trying out flexions without knowing what i'm doing.
brutal honesty.  
i'm just DYING to ride under someone who teaches this stuff :(
nevertheless, i'll never be part of the "PUSH PUSH PUSH & HOLD" school of riding!  that to me would seem to create lots of tension, and an unhappy horse (where is the reward?).

Paulam i can sympathize!
but i will at least give my instructor this:  it's a soft, giving, fluid & moving with the horse 'hold' that i am taught.  more like a 'connection' betw horse & rider, that gives & takes.

what a great forum this is (i've had many light bulb moments myself here!)
Trish

[AMouseForMe]

and THIS is the big problem i have with 'german' push push push & HOLD riding! the horse should *maintain* itself!

Correctly ridden, the German school is not about pushing and holding, or running the horse off its feet. All of the well-educated German school trainers I have worked with maintain that you ask and then leave the horse alone, and that the horse should go from a light aid. Contrary to popular belief, you don't just hold the reins and kick. Also, the German school doesn't demand that you ONLY warm up in trot or canter. I always warm my horses up with some lateral work in the walk before moving on to anything else.

If you never learned that you channel and direct forward energy with halfhalts, then you haven't had very good teachers! Running a horse around on the forehand is not what is meant by "forward". There are certainly plenty of terrible instructors out there, but I wouldn't condemn an entire school based on them. I've seen a lot of "French" trainers whose horses are tight-backed and falsely collected, but that doesn't mean the entire French school is worthless.  

[pintopiaffe]

ah, but I *think* Trish put 'german' in lower case and quotes on purpose.

Unfortunately, as with anything, the filtered down version of the truth is no longer the truth.  Just like the telephone game.

We have some very poor imitations of the German school over here, and I think that's part of the problem.  

And over and over I hear from the English folks they have similar 'translations...' or lack thereof.

Certainly the amount of push (including driving seat) and the amount of hand I learned from M.Poulin is a world apart from what I learn from my current teacher.  I would consider Poulin to be VERY correct, if obviously competition oriented.  BUT--also dealing with horses of a very different build and temperament than what I'm currently riding. A time and a place for each!  

[shoveltrash]

ah, but I *think* Trish put 'german' in lower case and quotes on purpose.

yes, exactly.  i didn't intend to bash one particular training method, but the way it is so often misinterpreted/mistaught.  based on some of the other posts - it seems this is very common.  

i have been told that flexions,etc. create 'headset horses.'  i think that ANY method in the wrong hands can be misused/abused.

but then i can theorize til the cows come home! :lol:
ultimately i'm just an amateur who is trying desperately to "find her way"
as many are.....  

[Heather]

Hi Jaeme,

To be honest, that amount of push and shove is never necessary, and is the very cause of the horse not going forward in the first place!! I have worked and still work, with some very laid back horses, even of heavy build, and if correctly trained from the start, are as light and sharp as a hotblood.

If the horse is constantly being blocked by a driving seat and strong contact, then the horse will become dull and unresponsive, and if this is tried with a hotblood, downright dangerous!!


Heather

[shoveltrash]

If the horse is constantly being blocked by a driving seat and strong contact, then the horse will become dull and unresponsive, and if this is tried with a hotblood, downright dangerous!!

sadly, this is all too common in my area.

and it doesn't take a *rocket scientist* to "know" this -- which baffles me!  i guess alot of people just blindly trust their instructor (?)

i'd like to think a "following/allowing" seat, and a "supportive" contact would be much nicer for the horse.

i've started more 'allowing' with my boy (AND a new KK french link bit!), and voila he is moving out!!!!  i briefly lost site, and spent so much time 'pushing' him he got resentful & just shut down <_< .
i live and learn, and learn the most from my errors!
Trish

[Bebe1]

Whatever, i need to find a teacher who understands what they are teaching. Too many years seeking forward forward forward without being able to harness it at all and wondering what the hell I'm doing wrong.

Next time you're over at my yard I'll grab my instructor for you.  She only teaches a handful of us at the yard but is toying with the idea of taking on more clients and she really is amazing.

i have been told that flexions,etc. create 'headset horses.' i think that ANY method in the wrong hands can be misused/abused.

So was I and I shied (no pun intended) away from it for years because of this.  In the process of schooling my mare we got to the point where we pretty much ignored her head completely and concentrated on the rest of her but there comes a point when you just can't channel what you're producing unless the contact is there.  Whilst my mare learnt fairly quickly to follow the contact and does a gorgeous long & low she still didn't understand how to soften through her jaw and poll.  It's actually taken going back to the ground and working on this in-hand, so in a sense focusing purely on what her neck & head are doing, to get her to understand this.  We must be on the right track, I was working in-hand with her last night and 3 people (one of whom was my instructor who was giving someone else a lesson) told me that Bebe looked very impressive and was soft, supple and loose throughout her body (quite a feat as she does tense through her back really well). What speaks more to me though is that she seriously enjoys this work and is now offering more and more without me even asking, last night we got some gorgoeus trot strides with her staying beautifully soft and round which is a first!

I suspect I'll have to go to long-reins and then riding to get the message across completely but without this understanding half halts are little more than requests for attention, I can't get a true rebalancing effect unless the aid goes completely through her body and back to me via the reins.  I suspect this is why forward & more forwards has not worked for us.