Baucher? Rolkur?!

[Vikki]

I expect I'll get told to read a pile of books (which I don't mind doing!) but being very new to the idea of classical riding (since I found this forum in fact) I get very confused when reading posts wich refer to 'Baucher' and 'rolkur' and many other strange words I've never heard of. What ARE the differences between the French and German styles?
And the only time I've heard of baucher is in reference to a hanging cheek snaffle.

I don't suppose it's that can easily be explained on here, but I'd like to learn more about classical riding in general and was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction?  

[Linda Baia]

This is a crude answer for the French vs German schools. I am sure Heather will be able to give a better answer.

IMHO, the Baucher school work the horse from front to back i.e. work on "raising, suppling" the forehand, and then the hind leg come into action.

The German school work from back to front i.e. work on engaging the hind leg and then the forehand will be lifted.

As I said it is a very crude description  <_< But it is a start. There are very few trainers working "à la Baucher", Philipe Karl and Jean-Claude Racinet are two of them.

Rolkhur is a perversion of a technic, just my opinion...

You can learn a lot on www.substainabledressage.com or.net

Good luck, this site, and the net is a good source to learn about the different types of methods/system used in dressage. You will have to do lots of reading, and DVDs watching

   

[shoveltrash]

oh WOW LB!
that website
www.sustainabledressage.com
(not 'SUBstainable', btw)

is absolutely WONDERFUL!

i could not believe that amount of great info there!!!
it'll take me forever to plow thru it all.....but it is WELL worth reading.

Vikki - classical riding/dressage has much to do with working the horse in the most 'correct'/egonomic way possible.  so that they stay sound/strong for the whole of their lives.  as compared to 'competitive,' which often yields a "flashy look" that is detrimental to the health of the horse & it's soundness.

A horse meant to be used as a mount with even the minimum of finesse, must be trained to carry the rider's weight in a proper way to avoid breaking down. Many think of the horse as a couch or some other mechanical structure which is meant to carry the extra weight of the human body. But even though the modern sports horse has been bred for better withers, stonger back and a more useful neck, they still have not evolved through the eons to carry humans.

so we have to train them, and gymnastisize their bodies to make them better able to carry us correctly.
(excerpt borrowed respectfully from the aforementioned website article "true collection.")

'Rolkur' - excessive bending of the neck, bringing the horse's nose back towards to it's chest, which interferes with breathing, salivation, and vision.

i'm not so knowledgable on 'french' vs. 'german,' as i think my methods encompass a bit of both (?).  Pintopiaffe, where are you?  she'd be the one to expound on that subject!

Trish

 

[pintopiaffe]

the Baucher school work the horse from front to back i.e. work on "raising, suppling" the forehand, and then the hind leg come into action.

NOOOOoooooo........

Though I'll let Muriel off the hook since English is not native to her.  lol!!!  

In it's most basic, The French school seeks balance before movement.   The German shool seeks balance THROUGH movement.   The schools were developed for very different types of horses.
 
The Portuguese or French-Portuguese school is mostly French, with a little German thrown in, and the SRS, Austrio-Hungarian tradition is closer to this than to actual German.  

Think of it this way... you don't drive your big dually deisel truck, move it through the gears and turn it  the same way as you do a ferrari or porsche.   The German school is *generally* more suited to a bigger, thicker, less reactive horse like the typical WB.   You need to get the energy GOING before you can harness it or balance it. The French or French-Portuguese school is more suited to the Baroque horse.   You have all sorts of energy, and forward... balance is needed before the horse can come through and be soft...

Baucher was a genious or a Devil, depending on whom you ask...  He figured out that the flexion of the jaw was not only the sign of relaxation and balance, but that it could, reflexively, FOSTER relaxation and balance.  He got very technical about how to do it and when and why...  The absolute best illustration I can give of it is this one stolen from JC Racinet:   Take a horse standing and push against it's hip... normally, the horse will lean back against you.  Now, have someone at it's head insert (carefully!) a finger in the mouth at the point where the bit would go.  The horse will chew and 'mouth' at the finger... at the point the horse chews--push again, the horse will move away from your pressure with no resistance at all.  

Baucherist flexions are quite esoteric.  You can be shown them, shown the results and still choose--for whatever reason--not to use them.   With all we've learned today, it's quite possible that some of the reason flexions can be SO miraculous is they are actually osteopathic releases in of themselves.

Rolkur is already explained quite well.  

[shoveltrash]

The schools were developed for very different types of horses.

The German school is *generally* more suited to a bigger, thicker, less reactive horse like the typical WB. You need to get the energy GOING before you can harness it or balance it. The French or French-Portuguese school is more suited to the Baroque horse. You have all sorts of energy, and forward... balance is needed before the horse can come through and be soft...

oh oh oh!
THANK YOU Pintopiaffe for a great *lightbulb* moment!!!!
my Friesian definitely falls into the 'german' category you describe.
it will be interesting to see how things differ with my PRE colt!

i have NEVER paused to think that the 'schools' were tailored in regards to breed characteristics!

ha
T.
 

[Linda Baia]

Though I'll let Muriel off the hook since English is not native to her.  lol!!! 

 

I knew I would get it wrong  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I love your parallele with the Cars, PP. I like your explanations  

Is the French school more representated by :
-François Robichon de la Guérinière
-Général Decarpentry

Is Baucher a tangent from the French School??? :unsure:

I am asking, because I am getting a bit confused  :blink:

I cannot wait for Pierre cousyn to join in. I am sure he will enlighten us    

[Vikki]

Oooh thankyou, it's much clearer now! I shall take a good look at that website!

So, if the French style is better for baroque horses and the German for WB's etc, out of interest, what category would welsh cobs fall into? I mean in terms of conformation etc.

I would have thought they were more like baroque horses seeing as they were apparently bred by putting spanish horses to welsh ponies in the first place, but I could be wrong!

Not that I plan to take up either particular technique in full force you understand, just wondering    

[Bebe1]

My mare goes better using the French school (though until I read Heathers post I didn't know that!).  My instructor showed me how to use some of the Flexions which Baucher advocated and they worked wonders for my mare.

Pushing my mare on in an attempt to get her truly forward confused her, upset her and generally did nothing, in fact one instructor who follows this method gave up on us completely as a lost cause.  Instead we've had to slow her down, use flexions both at halt and in movement and go from there. It works much better, she stays soft and responsive and it's a very rare occurrence for her to throw her toys out of the pram if she doesn't understand something.  I've just started doing some flexions in-hand (she's having a few weeks out of ridden work) in walk and she's picked them up really quickly and seems to enjoy the sessions.

I disagree with Rollkur though, it's not something I'd ever subject a horse to.

[sam&anita]

i'm wondering....because i have an iberian horse...and in holland most of the time they teach german way...i'm very interested in the baucher flexions.....does anyone know where i can find more about it....like pictures, books and stuff

thanks
anita

[Heather]

Hi Anita,

If you can get hold of a copy of Hilda Nelson's book that I mentioned, there are drawings in that- also Jean Froissard's book 'Classical Horsemanship for our time' has excellent photographs, but is out of print, although you can probably find a secondhand copy on the Net. I think that Luis Valenca's videos/DVD's may have the flexions- I am just waiting for the DVD's to arrive, so will let you know.

Heather

[ChrissieW]

Take a horse standing and push against it's hip... normally, the horse will lean back against you. Now, have someone at it's head insert (carefully!) a finger in the mouth at the point where the bit would go. The horse will chew and 'mouth' at the finger... at the point the horse chews--push again, the horse will move away from your pressure with no resistance at all.

This is absolutely fascinating stuff and I can tell I will be on the PC for years trying to get to grips with it all (better do that at home though not here at work   )

I don't pretend to understand the differences and details on this subject, but it has reassured me slightly about how I and my instructor (who to be fair does know what she is doing and trained abroad so is classically inclined) work with my mare -she is a TBxWB and technically would fall into the German school category I suppose.   Every article/book etc I have ever read has told me to get the horse going forward, forward, forward, before doing anything else particularly with the front end - with this mare, it just doesn't work.    We have found over the years that the best method of getting her to unlock and use herself is to start the sessions with flexing/lateral work like shoulder in etc in walk/trot and getting that lightness/flexion/straightness in the front and then she becomes light to the aids and forward.

By trying to get that lightness off the aids and forwardness first before the front end, she is very very evasive and locks up even more - like riding with the handbrake on, no amount of persuasion truly gets that hand brake off, she can still look OK to the uncritical eye, but riding her you just don't feel that she is truly tuned into the aids.

As I say I am a real novice where this stuff is concerned, so probably haven't explained properly, but thanks anyway, as it has given me a real light bulb moment and now I want to know more.    

Mind you, as I already have a pile of barefoot books and The Atheletic Development of the Dressage Horse by Charles De Kufny(sp?) by my bed, I just don't quite know where I will find the time to read everything I want to!  

Out of interest, which school would Charles de Kufny come under?     Sorry if its a stupid question, but I haven't got round to reading the book yet - it was recommended to me by my instructor.

Also any book/DVD recommendations would be gratefully received, although Heather's is the next one on my Amazon wish list to buy.

[Heather]

Hi Chrissie,

You have come to the same conclusion I reached many years ago!- that the 'German' school simply doesnt work for every horse! The flexing/lateral work in walk is exactly how we start a schooling session in Portugal, and I feel that you are doing the right thing for your mare, absolutely.

Having said that, my Lusitano stallion, Rei, actually works far better being warmed up 'German' style, not as forward, forward, forward as is reccommended these days, but getting him working over his back, loose ,transitions, before actually progressing to lateral work, works better for him. Yet I have had warmbloods who work far better having been warmed up in lateral work in walk first!!

It has already been said here on this new forum, that perhaps the German school is better for Warmbloods etc, and the French school, better for Iberians, TBs etc, but I dont even think this holds true- every horse is different, and I am not an adherent of either school, but mix the two to form a tool kit, with something for every horse!!

I have to say that although Charles de Kunffy is an eloquent writer, I do not like at all, the stuff I saw him teaching at the TTT, nor did I like the way he rides.

Heather

[shoveltrash]

I have to say that although Charles de Kunffy is an eloquent writer, I do not like at all, the stuff I saw him teaching at the TTT, nor did I like the way he rides.

really???  why?
i've been to his clinics, seen him ride, and currently ride under a former working student of his........
the only thing i find *different* is his advocating the use of sitting behind the vertical to find your seat.  but that in itself is just a tool, to be discarded once the rider has improved their seat.

i would think that a sluggish/lazier horse would probably respond better to a modified German approach (like my Friesian stallion).  my horse MUST have energy & be forward moving first & foremost.  i've tried flexions et al, but they don't do much for the lack of impulsion he always starts out with during warmup.  

a 'hotter' type horse would benefit from the French approach IMHO.  

but that's all speculation on my part!

[pintopiaffe]

and of course neither school is mutually exclusive!  

It's not like you throw out the forward entirely with the French school--in fact, without forward, then it is just putting the handbrake on.  It's not like you don't use suppling in the German school...

My explanation is just the very simplest, most basic of terms.

Absolutely you might lean more toward one or the other with a horse--and it might be more toward French with a big ol' WB and more toward German with an Iberian--but that's exactly it--each horse is an INDIVIDUAL.

But they also continued to develop partly because of the horses' conformations and inclinations.  The Iberians and baroque breeds/types tend to be easier to sit down behind--yet they will 'fake' it and not really be through the back.  It's quite easy for them to hold a position with the head that looks right, and only the most discriminating person on the ground can tell it's not through--the rider usually can feel it though. (unfortunately many are content wtih that and don't wish to go any further--it 'looks' pretty... ) Conversely, the bigger, lankier WB's need some encouragement to articulate the joints in that back end--that's a lot of WORK!  Yet tend to be much more supple through the back right from birth.  

There's a different emphasis on when the horse should be in self-carriage, and release of the aids... the classic German school would have you always 'holding' or pushing the horse from leg into hand, the French school asks for RELEASE of the aids when the horse is correct.  

Obviously I'm making huge generalizations--but you get the drift!  

Trish, your guy is interesting, because his temperament is probably much more WB, and he needs to get the engine in GEAR first... but he's also got the upright build of the baroque...  as he gets stronger and fitter, my guess is you'll be combining things...

I can, in one day, ride a Fjord (when she's not pg) who is working solid 2nd level.  With her it's FORWARD to find balance.  FORWARD to get her back end under her, then light flexions to contain the energy... (the forward means nothing until the balance is found!) Then ride a Fjord who is much hotter, has a much higher neckset, and needs a bit of the forward, but not too much or she'll just run off her feet... more flexions earlier, somewhere in the middle... then my guy, who prefers 100% the Franco-Iberian approach... flexions, balance, collected walk, lateral work came long before even canter did... etc. etc.

You tend to think of cob types as baroque in build and movement, but some of them are a bit cold to start out... so again, a combination is needed.  A hot Sec D with a good neckset will generally really appreciate the French-Portguese approach. (or, as in my case, a very baroque Arab!)  

There's a new really good (IMO) book on Baucher called "Racinet Explains Baucher."  I've not seen the other one available, is it still in print?  I'd love to snag a copy.  Racinet's "Another Horsemanship" is a basic text for riding in the French tradition as well.  

I think DeKunffy is more Austrio-Hungarian school, which, IMO--and I've only developed this theory myself--is somewhere in the middle as well.  I haven't worked with him, but know a few who have.  I *have* worked with Walter Zettl and Richard Ulman.  Richard is SRS, Walter is Czech.   The horses they learned on are hotter, closer to the hot bloods.  The methods tend to be a little softer, lighter and kinder.  I'm comparing this to a 2x Olympian who rode with Mueseller.   And perhaps the comparision isn't fair because he is a *competition* rider, but I would definitely consider him very traditional German school.   Walter, in particular, is who showed me there was another way, and sent me on my French quest--yet he definitely ISN'T French school... (well, as far as I know--did he do the Cadre? I don't think so, but might've been trained by someone who did... ) When I was priveleged to ride with Richard Ulman two years ago, not ONE thing he said or did was in conflict with my VERY Portuguese teacher...  Again--SRS there, Lipps... the school is going to develop for the horse.  Some of the Lipps are very hot, light and have tremendous collection abilities--some are less reactive, and not as inclined to go foward... You do what you need to do!

 

[pintopiaffe]

adding as a separate thought, rather than editing...

One of the biggest revelations for me the first time I rode with Walter Zettl... I audited 3 days of rides, and rode 2x.  At the time I was working on the Ranch--which is pertinent.

Walter very much had you 'do nothing' when the horse was right.  Well, nothing except reward... but sometimes I'd be afraid to *Breathe* when we 'got' it.  Now, you're supposed to breathe... but you 'stopped' aiding when the horse was right.

To me this resonated in two ways--children's hunters.  Children's hunters are trained to do what they are told to do until they are told to do something else.  Canter? Ok.  Aid is given, canter is taken, then canter is kept up until my little pilot tells me to do something else...  THIS I knew.    And Ranch work.  When you're out working for HOURS, you don't ride every stride.  Yet I'd change completely how I rode when I got into the ring.  Working, you'd put the horse in trot, and only interfere if you wanted to rate the speed, or canter or halt or whatever.  Other than that, you'd just go.  It's too exhausting to do anything else!  

And this was very much what I found with Walter's lessons.  A few more adjustments here and there than the above examples, but not this 'push-push-hold-hold' I'd experienced with a few other instructors.  (and NO, they weren't entirely CORRECT either.)

So then I met JC Racinet.  And in the first lecture, he wrote in big letters on the board:  "An aid should never *maintain*.  It can change, shape or modify, but never MAINTAIN."  

Ah ha.  

And I've been hooked ever since.