I Feel Like Giving Up :(

[Ols Rider]

:(

first of all hi everyone im new

right one of my horses Mr O, is a 15.1hh cob rising 12.
ive had him since a foal. everything went smoothly with breaking in etc.

he went in an eggbutt snaffle when he was younger but despite lots of lessons etc my instructor and i felt after a while he wasnt suited to the eggbutt esp as he has a thick tongue. he would simply be able to 'walk off with me' and wasnt stoppable. probably thinking back he was 'running away' from it as he didnt like it.
so istructor told me to get a ported pelham and use with roundings. he went ok in this bit for several years (i dont compete at all due to lack of transport so have no limitations on what bit to use with him based on rules)
i have very small hands  :( and have never ridden with two reins and when i try ive found it a bit too much of a handful.
anyhow my instructor stopped teaching. eventually i found another one. the new one JD used to be an instructor in household cavalry then mounted police and was a brilliant instructor, really explained things well. he tried to get my boy back into the eggbutt but he too agreed it wasnt for him.

we tried the pelham without a curbchain, and even without a curbchain and only one rein on top ring, but no matter how we tried it, he felt it was having a handbreak effect on my boy, as he was very laid back and a bit lazy.

so he advised i tried a 3 ring snaffle. i tried a single jointed one but my boy started to tongue poke, which he hadnt done previously. so after trial and error we tried a french link version then settled on a mullen mouth one.
he still tongue poked a bit.

then my instructor left as he was very popular and got a very well paid instructors job in USA. so since then ive had no instructor and there are none in my area now :(


i wasnt happy with my boys tongue poking so got in contact with the bit bank. i believed my boy was obviously uncomfortable. after trying a kk correction bit (the one with the big squareish port) and then a myler, between myself and bitbank we tried a 3 ring waterford on top big ring. the tongue poking completely stopped. my boy stops, goes and is a real star and does some excellent work at home in it.
we also found out that he had outgrown his saddle a little and is even more forward going and full of impulsion now hes got a wider one. so it could be that his saddle was restricting him when we thought it was the pelham.

anyhow hes still in the waterford, with a flash and is happy. however if we try to take up a good contact and work him right on the bit, he tongue pokes a bit. i dont have an instructor, and he does it with myself and my husband riding.

we dont compete or anything, so do i just give up trying to work him on the bit at times, or anything i can try, or a change of bit? i dont want to confuse my boy :unsure:



just making me feel a bit down and useless and i know deep down im not but i dont know what to do next.
oh and he pokes his tongue out a little bit, and it comes out in the middle of his mouth not one sided. he only does it if i take up a firm contact, where as he used to do it all the time.

[nix]

Hi Ols Rider and welcome to EE

Try not to be too hard on yourself. It's obvious from your post that you care about your horse and are trying to do the best you can, you are definitely not useless!  

What area are you in? I think it would be an excellent idea to have a good instructor/trainer take a look at you both. It sounds to me as though he is still unhappy in his mouth, have you had Mr O's teeth checked recently? If he is evading when you take up a contact, then the flash is probably only masking the problems. The now-corrected saddle issue may also have contributed to the behaviour.

A good instructor should be able to help you with your bitting query and also help teach you seat and weight aids (if you don't already use them), if "brakes" are an issue. Hope this helps and good luck. Please keep us posted.

Nix
x

PS You're not the only one who feels like 'giving up' at times ... I've felt that way myself recently!  :(  (I'm okay now, btw.)

[Mandeigh]

ditto to what nix said....if its any consolation my boy is a pain in the proverbial with his mouth, he chomps hard, and is constantly trying to get his tongue over the bit and we have also had a few bit changes.......

What I have used in the past wioth horses that are a bit fiddly in the mouth is a hackamore...similar in action to the pelham but no bit in the mouth and just one rein....maybe its worth a go...??

I also have a jp curved snaffle which seems to fit the shape of the mouth better...

 

[karen thompson]

This might sound really stupid - but I had real problems with my boy in a jointed snaffle - he hated it , tensed his jaw, chomped and generallly disagreed with it . He would lean on me, run through me - it was awfull. Then following a suggestion from heather I tried him in a rubber pelham - straight bar no port ( What are they supposed to do any way ?????). Following a few schooling sessions and as I can 't compete with a pelham I tried him in a happy mouth, again a straight one. The difference is unbelievable, he does his flat work in it, jumps in it, I even have breaks cross country in it - (with a flash for jumping). It may be worth considering.

Karen

[Heather]

Hi Ols and welcome to EE!!

Your story is so common, but I truly believe that the bit is the key to the horse- once the horse is happy and relaxed in his mouth the rest of the horse is free to work. I wouldnt worry about ihs tongue- usually they get fed up with this particular resistance, and forget about it after a while. My old trainer, Desi Lorent, used to hate to see the bit hoicked up causing wrinkles in the corners of the mouth. Consequently there were times when even i thought that maybe he had the bit too low and the horse would get his tongue over the bit. They invariably did, but Desi said to ignore it, and sure enough the problem almost always went away.

If your horse is currently happy and producing nice work in his current bitting arrangement, leave well alone for the time being. I was only saying to students today, that some horses go well in a Waterford. I have never used one personally, but I remember working on a couple of clinics with horses who went far better in this mouthpiece than any other. If it aint broke, dont mend it as they say!! If you are not competing and are happy with the way your horse is going at home, then dont worry about it!!

You are obviously a caring and concerned owner, so your horse is a lucky one!!

Heather

[cptrayes]

Heather I thought is was just me! I hate wrinkling the corners of my horse's mouths with the bit like you are told to. I tried pulling my own mouth up with my fingers and it felt dreadful, so I won't do it to them. I always fit the bit "too low". I feel like skipping now - it's not just me, it's not just me  :P !

And yes, they do occasionally put their tongues over their bits, and then they put them back again and carry on.

C

[baeloclaudia]

My mare hates having the bit fitted too high - she tosses her head and makes it perfectly clear its not comfy! She has been very tricky in her mounth in the time I've had her - she has lots of scar tissue in her mouth, can't wear a curb chain as the area is too damaged and easily bleeds, and has a lot of damage to her nose from wearing a spanish serreta. After going to a myler bit clinic I tried a combination bridle ( she was hopelessly strong and unsettled in her mouth) but in a very short time I found her nose too sensitive. Where the old scars were swelled up like half a rugby ball!
Finally I settled in a myler correctional bit with a high port, which enabled us to continue with our schooling and she seemed happy in it. She hates any type of single joint or straight/mullen mouth bit - I assume she prefers things off her tongue.
This worked well for a while,but as our schooling progressed I began to think we needed a little more of a refined bit and two reins...then I came across by chance a little bit called a tom thumb I think. Its sweet iron and copper, has little lightweight copper rings playing on a double joint in the middle. I use 2 reins on it and it doesn't have a curb chain. Best bit is she loves it! Its light, has play in it, and she is really settled. Also it seems to make lateral work easier somehow (Good shoulder control?! - perhaps I'm just learning to rode better!!)
Sadly of course I can't compete in it, but the work we do at home is fantastic and a far cry from what she was like when I first started trying to ride her 3 years ago.
Many people thought she was a waste of time and unrideable, but now she is a million dollar rolls royce of a ride. It is amazing what a traumatised and damaged horse can achieve with a lot of time and patience isn't it.

Sorry about that - my typing ran away with me...and yes, I think the mouth is the key to the horse too. Thats what started me off typing!! :blink:  

[Monty's Mum]

Hi
just thought I'd add my two penneth.
Jasmine, my daughters pony was very fussy about her head in general when we got her, she would snatch the reins, put her tongue over the bit fling her head up and down when Becky took a contact, lean on the bit and rush forwards, and when we put her bridle on she would stick her nose in the air so Becks couldnt reach.  This spoke volumes that she wasnt happy about something, she was being ridden in an eggbut snaffle when we bought her and her saddle didnt fit either, poor soul.  I had her teeth checked, had a new saddle fitted and the dentist suggested that he should look at her teeth every six months because of the way her teeth grew.  Once I was sure she was comfortable we started swopping bits around, I tried hang cheek snaffles, french links all sorts, I stayed away from pelhams because Beck was only 12 and couldnt manage two reins.  It was when I was on a trip to Burleigh that I spoke to a lady on the Myler stand and when I explained the problems she asked what breed she was, when I said she was Connemara X TB she said that Connemara's have very fat tongues therefore, a snaffle made then feel like they were choking when pressure was put on the bit and Jazz was probably panicking.  She suggested we only use a straight bit with maybe a port in.  I didnt get a Myler but I borrowed a three ring happy mouth from a friend and Becky rode it on the top Snaffle ring, the difference has been immense, I have recently bought an eggbut happy mouth for dressage and she is so much happier, she still fusses when she gets her bridle on and puts her tongue over the bit until the flash is done up but once working she is lovely.
By the way our old pony Major always had just the tip of his tongue poking when he worked, out it was just like he was concentrating, it never caused us any problems.
Please get your horses teeth checked though, when I bought Monty I got him a lovely new bridle with a flash on and when I fastened it he reared up and nearly fell over.  When the dentist came he said neither wonder because his teeth were so sharp the flash caused severe pain to him, once his teeth were sorted and the ulcers healed he has had a flash on ever since, with no problems.

Good luck, and don't give up as nix sayes we all feel like that at times.  I felt like giving up last night when Monty was leaping from once side of the school to the other when we were practicing our dressage test.  I must be the only one who practices and gets worse as time gets on, Monty is now anticipating canter from A instead of B now, and wont go anyware near the edge of the school.  Anyway take care.

Regards


Anne

[sandpiper]

My horse has also had bit problems since day one, I am convinced it is because his breeders bitted him in a twisted wire snaffle (WHY???).

Anyway his main problem is getting his tongue over the bit and waving it out the side (usually always the left).  I was advised by trainers to do his cavesson up really tight; use a drop; heighten the bit etc but although the only thing that worked was the drop I wasn't happy.

After using the drop for some time I went back to a cavesson and kept it loose so if he got his tongue over he would get it back again.  I got to the stage that I just ignored it and every time the tongue got over I just gave him the reins so he could get it back again, then carried on doing what we were doing.

Over time he tended to forget about this habit, but would do it if he was excited or tense.  Nowadays if I haven't ridden him for a while (he has been in and out of vet hospital) he reverts back to tongue waving again once I start riding but I think it is because he's been used to not having a bit in his mouth, and if I carry on ignoring it it usually goes away.

Another point about bits; he also hated the single jointed bits and really backed off them, straight bars he leans on but seems to go the best in the Sprenger double jointed.

[lmevans]

afternoon all...


same problem, same solution....

my boy passionately hates a single jointed snaffle, so I ride in a french link which he likes - but he can be a bit strong (only when he gets over excited out hacking - but as I have only just started him jumping I haven't tried him across country yet - I'm sure the brakes will fail   !). So I have a baucher cheek french link - bit of extra leverage and poll action helps with the brakes.

Many people reckon the waterford is just a slightly stronger version of the french link - bit more stopping power but with the curved shape in their mouth that many horses like and no nutcrakcer action.

So if he likes it, stick with it. If he accepts the contact and works well on it, what does it matter that he pokes his tongue a bit. It's preferable that he has the freedom to move his tongue where he wants to put it and isn't wired shut with a tight noseband etc (one of my worst pet hates - you can't buy a normal bridle ina shop without a flash noseband on it as standard   !!!!)

Anyway - ramble over!

have fun
Lucie and Casper xx

[shiralee]

Do you guys use the John Patterson (JP) snaffle bits over there in the UK?  They are a single jointed bit, but with a very curved shape to the bars so that they sit softly over the tongue, and have virtually no nutcracker action.   The shape seems to mimic the curve of the horse's mouth/tongue, almost like a very wide port.  These bits are very popular here in Australia.    They are now available in all of the regular styles of snaffles - eggbutt, Fulmer/FM, D ring etc., so there is no problem finding one to show in.  

I have had a lot of success with the JP loose ring sweet iron bit - the bars are quite a bit thinner than say an eggbut, so they don't take up as much room in the mouth, which the horses seem to find more comfortable, and the sweet iron keeps the mouth moist.   The loose ring design also gives plenty of play in the bit.    Like any bit, they are not going to work for every horse, but I've recommended this bit to dozens of people who have found their horses have become much happier, lighter and responsive.  

I've noticed on a US forum that they are only just starting to become popular in the US.    

[nix]

Hi Shiralee

Yes we do have the JP bits in this country, they are definitely worth a look, as you say. Harve much prefers this bit (the eggbut version) when hacking, he definitely likes the way the shape of the bit has been designed with the conformation of the horse's mouth in mind.

Nix
x

[Mandeigh]

I have a JP snaffle too.....and it has a french link....my only gripe is that this and many other snaffle bits have awfully large rings.....they look daft on my boy who is very small and narrow by the muzzle...

[shiralee]

Ahhh Mandeigh, but how nice they look on a big boofheaded horse like mine.   :P  

[Sarah B]

Hi there Ols rider - dont feel down - I have only had my horse 2 years and have nearly enough bits to start my own bit-bank!  Even when you have found a bit that seems to work you may find that you have to swap it occassionally as he gets used to it.  My ex-racer boy is currently in a KK trainer loose ring, with no nose band - even when we did some beginners cross county last week I only changed the bit to a french link eggbutt still had reasonably good brakes  He has been through about 8 bits in the last 18months, including pehlams, hanging cheek french links and I even borrowed a Myler just to see if he went better in it!  He likes best being ridden in a Dooley - basically a bitless / sidepull bridle - but I am not confident enough of our brakes in that to take him out and about the countryside in it - let alone jumping!!

You'll get there eventually and at least you are concerned enough to be trying to get what is best for you horse!  

 

just a few other bits and pieces to add!!

baeloclaudia - I thought you might like to read the attached article that Mark Rashid has on his website about the Tom Thumb bit! It's quite an interesting read - even if you don't agree with what he says!


My Webpage


Imevans - I totally agree with you  about flashes - why is that just about every bridle you see comes complete with a flash to strap the poor animals mouth shut?  And every photo of a horse in the magazines shows the horse wearing a flash - how many riders actually think about whether their horse really needs one?  I have no real objection if the flash is needed but this blind following of equine fashion is unfair on the poor horse - you try running and jumping with your mouth strapped shut!! when I first started riding I did a course where the horse I was given for the duration had one of those dressage nosebands that you lever shut - the amount of pressure on her mouth must have been huge - but it was accepted as normal by everyone! No wonder she used to become a giraffe and lift her head up really high when you tried to tack her up!!


Rant over!