Emotional Learning

[carold_uk]

I'm very interested in what Marengo and the catsmother wrote on the smartie thread.  I dont want to divert that thread into a discussion on learning theory, so i've started  a new one! Then we can continue to listen to Caroline's story without  having a  barney!

I too am interested in the extent to which  we train horses  for each specific situation, or train them to be emotionally OK, so they can cope with new situations, even if not specifically dealt with. I guess I'm influenced by Mark Rashid, Harry Whitney and Dr Deb who all in different ways emphasise the need for the horse to be emotionally OK; and if so, then new situations usuaully present little problem as the trust is there.. No need to introduce everything seperatley

Why its uppermost in my mind just right now  is that over the last two days I decided I wanted to clip Mara - who has never been clipped before (and nor have I clipped a horse either but that's another story). She can be a completely opinionated baggage,  and I fully expected her to be difficult about the clippers, as in the past, noisy things have been a problem. But contrary to my expectations, she was absolutely fine. Careful intro of course, but within a couple of muniutes i could run the clippers everywhere over her. It was not an issue.  I realised that she just trusted me.. it was something new, but nothing to be scared of.....    I was pretty astonished to be frank.. but also pleased that we have got to a point in our relationship where  she can look to me when faced with something new and decide its just OK.   WOW (as far as i am concerned.. big grins....)

so i am fully with   thecats mother when she writes:

"this is a really interesting perspective Marengo! I've looked into Emotional Learning/Intelligence and attended courses on it from a human/management perspective, but not really thought about it explicitly from the horse point of view before. Correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick Marengo, but the difference could perhaps be summarised as how horses learn "facts" (linear learning), and how they learn/develop wider and more deep-seated "feelings/reactions/personality development" (emotional learning).

For example, many horses are taught/trained to be confident in situation A, situation B, situation C, etc etc and a caring, thorough and committed horseperson will try to cover every eventuality they can thing of from A to Z in a "logical" (though human logic, which may not fully transfer to horses laugh.gif ) order, and hope/expect by the end to have a fully confident horse. But, if the horse experiences situation Z before they've been lead along the linear learning path to it (and without having had the time and space to develop the associated emotional learning too), or even experiences D before they've fully assimmilated C, the horse may not have the emotional tools in place to cope with it. Whereas if a horse has had the time and space to develop their emotional learning too, then not only will they be more able to cope with situation Z before being (and without necessarily needing to be) specifically "trained" in coping with it, but will also be able to transfer that inner confidence to situations from completely different alphabets that said trainer might not have been able to forsee or specifically train in (i.e. not A-Z at all) throughout its life. smile.gif

For myself, I see the differences between emotional and linear (from a human perspective) as sort of being the differences between personality (i.e. deep, core stuff), and skills/knowledge (i.e more "superficial" and not so fundamentally "me"). I can update my skills/knowledge base quite quickly, but development of the personality takes more time. But it is worth it because it can have a far-reaching effect on the skills/knowledge base far in excess of any external teaching."

[cptrayes]

And so am I. You cannot hope to train a flight animal specifically to accept every single situation that it may find itself in, there are too many permutations. We've all been on a horse that's been down a particular road a thousand times but spooks this time because there's a big leaf on the road or the drain cover is wet today :lol: . The only thing you can do is train it to trust both you and itself that it is not going to get eaten in a new situation. I think that sort of training is what is being suggested by emotional learning for horses and I think it's absolutely essential.

Anyone who is reading Smartie's story will know how I do it - how does everyone else create generalised confidence in their horses?

Also, on a very much related theme, can we talk about "turning away" which is often advised for young horses in order to "let them consolidate their learning"?Can anyone point to any scientific research which has been done which actually shows that if you take two very similar 3 year old newly backed horses and turn one away and don't turn the other away, that the first will be more emotionally mature, more capable or stronger physically than the one which has been kept in work? I'm afraid anecdotes don't work for me on this one, because for everyone who says "my horse .... grew up....calmed down...etc" when he was turned away, I can point to one that did the same and was never turned away at all. I'm wholly unconvinced that turning away my current 3 year old would do him any favours at all, given his background. And I would seriously love to see some research that will give me some guidance.

C

[Flashback]

how does everyone else create generalised confidence in their horses?

i dont think these are specific *lessons* - as in *today we will learn to be more confident in xxx* - its more a case of *gut feel* (and OMG isnt it hard to put into words what one does automatically!  :blush: )

years of experience lend themselves to instinctively knowing exactly the right *steps/turns* to make in training

IMHO it is possible to get bogged down with too much theory and miss out on the experience of just *getting on with it*! - i mean, yes youre going to make mistakes, everyone does, thats part of what makes us human and another part of being human is learning by them!

also IMHO a lot of problem horses arise because owners just do not have the experience to deal with them - maybe theyve come into horses at a *later stage* in their life, maybe they fancy a particular type/breed of horse that in reality is too much for their limited experience - they then turn to *fads* and *gadgets* in the vain attempt to compensate for their inexperience when in reality they would be better off in purchasing a more suitable horse! -  :blush:  sorry - mini rant over  :blush:

just my 2p worth  :blush:  

[Ebyss]

Also, on a very much related theme, can we talk about "turning away" which is often advised for young horses in order to "let them consolidate their learning"?Can anyone point to any scientific research which has been done which actually shows that if you take two very similar 3 year old newly backed horses and turn one away and don't turn the other away, that the first will be more emotionally mature, more capable or stronger physically than the one which has been kept in work? I'm afraid anecdotes don't work for me on this one, because for everyone who says "my horse .... grew up....calmed down...etc" when he was turned away, I can point to one that did the same and was never turned away at all. I'm wholly unconvinced that turning away my current 3 year old would do him any favours at all, given his background. And I would seriously love to see some research that will give me some guidance.

C

There is a type of learning discussed in psychology which refers in some way to this idea of "turning away" called Latent Learning. There is a good deal of theory and research to suggest that indeed a "break" will lead to a consolidation and generalisation of recently learned knowledge. Some people refer to it as giving the horse time to think about what it's done, which IMO, is a load of twaddle. The horse does not consciously reflect upon his life in this way. Rather, it's kind of like you have given the horse the idea of what's expected of him, and he's learned to apply the knowledge himself to similar situations. It is learning in the absence of reinforcers, a kind of internalised learning process that doesn't involve conscious thought. So very much in keeping with the emotional learning being discussed.

 However, I've nothing in front of me to show how long a break is needed, or what form it should take. It can happen just as easily overnight in the stable as it can out in the field.

It's been a good while since I read up on Latent Learning (when I was in college) so I'm rusty on the specifics. A quick google should give plenty of definitions, all pertaining to learning in the absence of reinforcers, often building on previously reinforced behaviours.

If I remember correctly, Kelly Marks refers to Latent Learning and talks about how it relates to horses.

I think the whole break thing is more casual than this though. It's the same for humans, we need a rest from hard slog (mental or physical) every once in a while, and for a young person, or young animal, the need to do something different and not get bored is vital. That doesn't mean that chucking a horse out in a field is the right thing to do necessarily. Perhaps the opposite is required depending on the type of horse. From the physical point of view, I can see two sides :

One : The young horse is building muscles in a way he never has before due to carrying weight, when let's face it, he was not designed to. To keep pushing and pushing without a break might cause the horse to break down quicker throughout life.

Two : It's never a good thing to train muscles carefully and then just let them go completely slack by throwing the horse out in the field for a few months, and expecting him to come in ready to work atthe same level as before. Is it ever a good idea to completely lose fitness? Regular work is what keeps us healthy. Excessive work is what ruins us, as does prolonged idleness.

My personal opinion is that three is too young to break a horse, and I base this on Dr Deb's work. However, that's the ideal. Many horses start at two and are fine for their entire lives.. does that make it right though? Knowing that you are putting an underdeveloped musculoskeletal system under a stress it really isn't ready to cope with yet. That is not aimed at you Caroline, tbh, I think you're spot on with Smartie. I'm not convinced a break would do him any good right now, he's a sharp horse, he needs consistent, even work for short bursts. 20 minutes a day at walk and a tiny bit of trot won't do him any harm IMHO, infact, it's probably the best thing for this horse.  

[nix]

Marengo, I would be interested to know how you would apply emotional learning regarding training horses? Please could you explain more .

[shoveltrash]

yes!  i too am fascinated by this.  and would like to learn more.
have there been studies done?  
Trish

[Rachel]

how does everyone else create generalised confidence in their horses?

I haven't been reading Smartie's post (apologies!) as it just looked too vast to even contemplate reading by the time I got to it!

I think confidence as a whole is confidence in themselves and in you. Self confidence I think can be gained by encouragement (rewarding the slightest try, both with a release and vocally etc) because the horse then finds things that they can do, and do them easily. It's such a lovely thing to see - one horse I know regards sideways movement as her party trick, and her posture and pride (and self-esteem) just seems to go through the roof! My pony has a trick of putting his front legs up on a log - it's something he knows will earn him praise and he enjoys it. But in scary situations the amount of trust placed in the rider/handler is extremely important.

I think that generating that confidence and trust in the handler leads to the horse being able to cope with frightening ( ) situations. If you always aim to be consistent, fair etc, then the horse gradually feels that he can put his trust in you and have confidence in you as a leader. I'm not getting into all the ''alpha'' horse, boss horse stuff here, but the majority of horses are hardwired to be a follower: those horses don't want to be the one to make the choices but they will do if no-one else shows themself to be good enough to keep them safe.

However, whilst that's your ideal, everyday ''training'' to gain trust, I do think that it's important to put it into a real life situation to, hopefully, increase that trust. I don't believe in teaching spooking in place: to me that's shutting the horse and a part of the horse's psyche down. I'd far rather use a spook as a learning opertunity: again, showing the horse that a) I make good decisions, you can trust me on this next time and B) that perhaps that situation was not as scary as they thought. Although preferably doing this under controlled conditions! Desensitising is similar: performed well its teaches that xxx is OK, improves trust in the handler and increases their confidence in themselves. Done badly it does as Ronseal - exactly what it says on the tin. And I don't really want a desensitised horse when I would aim to use the lightest aids possible.

Ultimately, as you say Caroline, you cannot anticipate every single scary thing that may happen to your horse. And that approach can go wrong too - I think it was in Kelly Mark's book that I read about a story where the horse was afraid of sheep. To try to reduce this fear, the owner bought a couple of sheep and put them in the stable next door. However, whilst the horse lost the fear with these particular sheep, any others met out hacking where still carnivorous horse eaters in disguise!

Also, concerning turning away: I agree with Ebyss in that it's probably more of a physical thing. I think it's very much dependant on the individual though: a horse which has always been around people happily, who was easy to back and coming on well would probably benefit from a little time off just to physically mature and so that it didn't start working too much for its state of development (or a person error - start expecting too much from them). But with some horses it may cause a large amount of stress to finally get along with people, then be turned away, then be brought back into work and having to repeat some it again.

Rachel

[Ebyss]

I was thinking about this type of learning a few days ago, this generalised learning, as opposed to linear learning. I remember a point about Linda Parelli saying "it's ok for your horse to be afraid of you", and most people were horrified by that. But I had to wonder did we really get what she meant? Did she actually mean : It's ok for your horse to be afraid of what you want him to do, a fear response is a natural thing for a horse, don't let his fear response frighten you.. it's ok for him to be scared. It's your job as a trainer to teach him how to deal with his fear.

I'm of the opinion that horses should feel fear. If they don't, they're lousy prey animals, and they sure as hell aren't proper horses. What's vital as a trainer/owner is to teach your horse to deal with his fear, not by running from it, but by looking to his leader (you) and taking his cue from you. This is what a horse does in the wild, this is what it is to be a horse. Yes, be afraid.. this is what keeps you alive. In the domestic situation, things change, we need him to deal with terrifying things on a daily basis. It's up to us to show him how to react. This is where the greatest challenge as regards "emotional" learning and generalisation exists. It's no good training how to do each specific thing if he reverts to blind panic every time something new and slightly different crops up. Horses are nothing if not adaptable. Generalisation is necessary for evolutionary survival. So is fear.

[thecatsmother]

Earlier today I posted up elsewhere on this forum (in "Ted" thread on General forum) a picture of me jumping for the first time in 5 years (pic is repeated below), it's made me think about my emotional learning, and a recent example of it (I know this should perhaps be in rider training, but I guess the principles apply equally on both sides)

I learned to ride badly at a succession of riding schools, on sour, disinterested, unschooled horses, (sadly, often taught by sour, disinterested, unknowledgeable instructors  :( )  and was jumping (over fixed XC fences   ) in group lessons way before I should have been. My lower leg was nowhere near secure, my seat was far from secure/influential, and my "fatal crouch" was indeed dangerous to my health; and consequently I had a few falls  :ouch:    and completely lost my confidence. When I realised I was feeling sick with fear every time I went for a lesson (and paying for the privilege   ) and getting worse not better, I gave up riding completely for a while. But still I yearned to ride properly and, after a few years of having occasional lessons with Sue on various horses when the opportunity arose, to get my confidence back and the proper basics established (learning to rise the trot completely from feel, etc), Mark and I took an ex-racer TB on loan last year for a few months to "test out" horse ownership, and then last October took the plunge and bought Chocky.

Sue was influential in chosing him as our horse, and in retrospect I feel sure that part of the reason she thought he'd be the right horse for me at least, was that he'd help my emotional learning.

To be honest, within the space of just a few lessons on proper position and technique from Sue, my physical position was probably stable enough to start learning to jump safely (and perhaps with others Sue would have resumed jumping lessons earlier). But emotionally I was still far from ready to resume jumping - I'd convinced myself that flatwork was my thing. Mark was the adrenaline junkie, after all    :lol:

But over the past year, Sue's developed and improved my physical riding skills in a linear way, but has also allowed my emotional learning/development to occur, in the form of confidence and self-belief. So, even though my body was probably fully able to start jumping safely and well again some time ago, it's only recently that I've started to believe that I can do it (and actually want to have a go!). i.e. My head was capable of it quite a while ago, but my heart didn't believe it was. She obviously timed it to perfection, as the lesson pictured started with ground poles, and when the ickle crosspole was put up, Chocky (who adores jumping) popped himself into canter when he saw and approached it. And whereas the last time (over 5 years ago) I approached a jump in canter I was tense and petrified mentally (and consequently tense and petrified physically too  :blush: ), this time I found myself thinking "yee-haa" and smiling as we cantered towards it and had enough time to think about what I was doing as we jumped (oh, OK then, "big-canter-strided"  :lol: ) over it, and then grinned all the way around the school, on a real high  

I think some emotional learning has definitely taken place within me, and I am very proud of myself, and also grateful to Sue for giving me the time for this to happen, not pushing me too far too fast (when she knows that I am the sort of person whose confidence in their physical abilities is fragile) and therefore ensuring that my first "proper" ( ) jumping lesson was a thoroughly enjoyable experience  

[cptrayes]

Lesha isn't it just great when things go like that :lol: ? And doesn't your horse make a nice shape even over a little fence? Well done both of you. And Sue for getting you there.

I'm glad to have your support Ebyss, in what I am doing for Smartie. He is physically undeveloped and I don't plan to ride him for more than 15 minutes max before he is much, much stronger. But it is nice to know that you don't think it will harm him doing a little now, and also that you also think that turning away wouldn't necessarily be best for him.

Can I add a bit to the conversation about emotional learning? The problem I have with this is that the research in this area has mostly been done in humans. And humans are capable of getting involved in a situation, then some time later reflecting on that situation and saying to themselves "I said/did x and she got angry. If I had said/done y she might not have done" and therefore learn from the experience for a long, long time afterwards, even years. (don't you still think of things from your childhood and realise how they could have turned out differently if you had done different things?). The problem is that  a horse is not capable of that kind of reflection. It only learns by close connection in time with outcomes to events. So I'm not at all convinced that emotional learning as understood in a human will translate directly into horse training. I do think there is emotional learning that horses need to do, but I'm completely unconvinced that "time mulling it over out in the field" comes into the equation at all.

Great discussion!

C.
 

[Ebyss]

Yup, I agree about a lot of research being done in humans, but the Latent Learning I mentioned was "discovered" in .. wait for it.. ethological psychology (oh won't PEE just love that    ). Most conditioning/learning/reinforcement research is done on animals; from bees to rats to chimpanzees. Latent Learning was first recognised in rats that had been taught using food reinforcers to navigate a maze. One day the researcher realised he had no food, but said "sod it" and put the rats to work anyway, hoping it wouldn't mess things up royally. It didn't, in fact, in the absence of reinforcers and being taught, the rats applied previously learned knowledge to new challenges. This is not "emotional learning" as such, rather it's learning to generalise -- very different to the linear learning, which I personally feel is a necessary part of training an animal, but only as an accompaniment to this deeper, generalised "emotional" learning.  

"Time mulling it over in the field" -- gosh I agree with you there. The horse just does not have this kind of conscious thought, this ability to self-analyze. It's one of the few things left that separates us humans from other mammals, now that tool-making/use, "theory of mind" and recreational sex are no longer exclusively human. BUT, this break, this time in the field, is where the latent learning occurs. It's not a conscious thing by the horse, he doesn't think about what he's done, but the knowledge he's picked up somehow consolidates itself inside his brain. Humans do it too, absolutely they do... totally unconscious learning.

About emotional learning... it's bordering on the anthropomorphic depending on how you define "Emotional Learning". I take it to mean the generalised learning that I'm talking about.. the ability of the horse to learn confidence in his surroundings and to "step away" from purely instinctual behaviour. I know of no way to do this other than to spend time with your horse (doing the right things obviously... spending time with your horse and continually beating him ain't gonna work).

I don't take it to mean the ability of the horse to learn how to deal with his emotions in a subjective, self-analytical way.

Tbh, I think 15 minutes a day on a horses back is nothing, even if it is a three y/o. What I really object to is strenuous work for a two/three/four y/o. They're just not physically able for it. I think though, that we have to meet half way with horses. People get very caught up in the word "natural" while forgetting that by riding them we have completely removed them from anything near "natural". I'm a great believer in the theory that Stephen Budiansky talks about regarding the evolutionary strategy in domestication. Man doesn't tame the wild beast, the wild beast "chooses" to shack up with man in a strategy of inter-species cooperation. There are prices to pay for the security and proliferation of ones own species if it goes this route. For "domestic" and wild animals the price is usually to lose members of the species as food (think cows, chickens, etc). The gain is great however; the species not only thrives on this mutual back-scratching, it booms, and takes over most of the planet. With horses, the price they pay for domestication is to work for us.. our responsibility as "domesticator" is to ensure that their lives are as well-respected and secure as possible. Sadly, many people seem to have turned their backs on the agreement, and the poor horse lives a life of subservience and misery. That was never part of the deal.

(Incidentally, inter-species cooperation happens all throughout the natural world, and there is nearly always a trade off. In baboons and zebras, the zebras must accept the loss of foals as food for baboons in return for the extra security they get for staying with them).

you also think that turning away wouldn't necessarily be best for him.

I really don't think it would do him any good now. It's like Mastermind:" "I've started so I'll finish". Given his past, waiting any longer to show him what life is all about will just make things harder for you and him. If you had turned him out straight away after he came from the other yard, and left him for a few months, he may have learned that contact with humans = bad, no contact = life of peace in the field. Better to catch him early and show from the outset that life is going to be quite pleasant for him. I don't know how much there is to be gained from giving him a break tbh, but they say "a change is as good as a rest". When you feel he may be getting bored or restless, up the ante. I'd do groundwork, and even, maybe, some trick training (please don't all run in horror!). I mean things like touching targets, and stepping on a log on command. Why? because it's food for the brain, and it doesn't matter if you both muck it up.. because he'll never really need it as a skill anyway. It may seem a bit "circusy" but deep down, all training is just reinforcement and conditioning, be it piaffe, jumping or rolling a ball around with his head.

[thecatsmother]

Caroline said:

The problem is that a horse is not capable of that kind of reflection. It only learns by close connection in time with outcomes to events. So I'm not at all convinced that emotional learning as understood in a human will translate directly into horse training. I do think there is emotional learning that horses need to do, but I'm completely unconvinced that "time mulling it over out in the field" comes into the equation at all.

Ebyss said:

I don't take it to mean the ability of the horse to learn how to deal with his emotions in a subjective, self-analytical way.

I agree - I think emotional learning is something which happens regardless of whether someone (person or animal) consciously analyses it or not.  My increased confidence crept up on me and caught me unawares   , I didn't consciously "talk" myself into it  - that simply doesn't work when you're talking about overcoming fears which have gone deep into the emotional core of the brain, the limbic system. If anything, when one has fears and feels threatened, then the logical brain seeks to justify what the limbic brain is feeling, because the logical brain quite simply can't imagine what it would be like for the limbic brain to feel any differently, as it's below the level of conscious thought/direction. What the limbic brain experiences is perceived to be just "the way things are". But the way the limbic brain operates and what it feels and how it reacts  can change, and that's what emotional learning/development is.

Just because I happen to be the sort of person who's interested in learning theory and analysing things and using the more logical/developed bits of my brain, doesn't mean my more basic brain (the limbic system, the amygdala to be specific IIRC from courses) doesn't go its own merry way, at its own pace (which is slower than linear learning, but more unshakeable once it's happened), taking what life throws at me and coming to its own conclusions (happily, in this instance, that I can jump   ).

As Marengo said in her original post, the limbic system of the horse is proportionately much larger than ours, so that's why logical learning, while it has its place, isn't the whole story. Horses are creatures more of feelings than of thoughts I guess....

[cptrayes]

maybe, some trick training

Fanstastic discussion and don't let me stop it, but I have to mention a trick I have just seen in the latest Zorro film. I just HAVE to teach it to Smartie one day. Zorro's black Iberian stallion was standing leaning sideways onto a wall with his frontlegs crossed - cute or what :lol: ! I would just love to be at a show and say "Smartie, relax", and have him flop against the side of the lorry and cross his legs :P  :P  :P .

[thecatsmother]

I would just love to be at a show and say "Smartie, relax", and have him flop against the side of the lorry and cross his legs    .

 :lol:  You'd have to get a show rug in paisley silk fabric, or perhaps burgundy velvet would look nice on him (smoking jacket style) and also get him to get a louche look on his face, the equine equivalent of "well, hell-loooo"  :lol:

I believe somone I know trained one of hers to cross its legs in response to "what do ladies do when they want the toilet"  :lol:  

[SueC]

Zorro's black Iberian stallion was standing leaning sideways onto a wall with his frontlegs crossed

Cat Ballou