You Can Teach Your Horse To Do Anything!

[Ebyss]

In my experience i have met many horses that would become extremely cross if i clicked and didn't treat then expected them to carry on. The click is the ultimate reward which isn't just about food it's the fact they are allowed to stop.

I'm sure they would, but the point must come when you no longer reward their behaviour, there are many situations where the clicker may not be to hand, and you need the horse to react the way you want him to... so the clicker must eventually go. Intermittent RF allows for a slower extinction than an abrupt stop. How does one eliminate the clicker?

 As for them being allowed to stop when they hear the click.. now that is a different thing altogether. I can certainly see why that might cause a problem if you continue to click and expect the horse to keep going. As Numbat said, how is he supposed to know which click means what? But, and I may be way off here, I think this is a very human way of looking at it. How does the horse really view the click? What does it really mean to him? If it means "you can stop now", then Intermittent RF will be very confusing. If it means "Good job, you got it right, you will get a reward soon" then Intermittent RF will be of great benefit in maintaining performance (in the later stages, not the beginning).

Also "Intermittent" reinforcement would only work if, when first introduced there was an element of force involved to "make" the horse continue which go's against the grain as far as Clicker training is concerned.

I don't agree with that at all. I don't see why force should be used just because you are using Intermittent RF -- which shouldn't come in to play until after you have established the behaviour with a normal "Click-Reward". The Intermittent RF is for when you are phasing out the clicker, not for the initial stages. You ask for a behaviour that you have trained for, the horse does it correctly, you click, but don't treat, you ask again, the horse responds again, you click, you treat. Where is the force there? Is the horse suddenly going to stop performing if you withhold the treat? If so, that is a problem. It is this that can and does lead to rapid extinction. I don't see where the force is though. This kind of RF is used quite a bit in modifying childrens behaviour in remedial settings, not a place one would want to use force in any way.

Putting a movement on a variable system of reinforcement is a process which enables the horse to realize he wasn't wrong if we choose not to click something but to just keep trying and this i feel is where the use of the voice comes in useful as a keep going signal .... "good, thats correct, keep going as i may click" The clicker doesn't need to be used as a keep going signal if the horse requires this to encourage the movement to keep going the way the movement has been originally shaped needs to be looked at. I just feel that this way of clicker training could easily become confusing for the novice when first starting out, i feel it could become frustrating to the horse to.

I can see what you mean here, could you explain the variable RF process that you use, and what signals you use as "keep going signals"?

 I think the reason for the differing views on the Intermittent vs Alternative Keep Going Signals is what we view the clicker as meaning when we start to train with it. If, as you say, it is purely for "Good, you may stop now", then Intermittent RF will be confusing and frustrating for the horse. If you view the click as "Good job! This is right!" the Intermittent RF will be very useful in maintaining the desired behvaiour. The click doesn't change it's meaning for the horse, it still means "Good Job! You've done it right", it's just the treat may come after one, two or three clicks.

I agree that this may well be very confusing for both horse and trainer if they are new to CT.

[Becky holden]

As Numbat said, how is he supposed to know which click means what? But, and I may be way off here, I think this is a very human way of looking at it. How does the horse really view the click? What does it really mean to him? If it means "you can stop now", then Intermittent RF will be very confusing. If it means "Good job, you got it right, you will get a reward soon" then Intermittent RF will be of great benefit in maintaining performance (in the later stages, not the beginning).

The click means both "you can stop" and "good job you will now get your reward". When the sound of the click is first introduced to the horse it soon becomes a sound worth hearing simply because food will follow. This is where the contract between me and the horse begins, you hear me click and a reward will follow. When a movement or behaviour is first introduced to a horse i will click on a fixed schedule, each time you touch the target... click..treat, each time you step sidewards...click...treat. When the horse realizes that going sideways or touching the target is a good thing it is then time to apply a variable schedule, the clicks will now come on a random basis

could you explain the variable RF process that you use, and what signals you use as "keep going signals"?


Ok lets take lateral work as an example, once the horse has learn't to step away from pressure and i want to start shaping the shoulder-in from this initial response
first of all i would begin on the ground applying finger pressure to where my leg would be if riding, i would begin the shoulder-in on a circle first of all.... 2 strides click treat, walk the horse forward re-apply the aids, 4 srides click treat, then i would ask for more strides but reward with my voice, then i'd ask the horse for shoulder-in again, few strides, walk forward few more strides walk forward, at all times encouraging with key words with my voice, after 3 or 4 seperate sequences of shoulder-in i would then click. The horse starts to try harder and harder, to try and gain the click, soon i can ask for more and more shoulder-in. Once the horse can shoulder-in for the full length of the school then  i will go back and click after 2 or 3 strides  because the horse never knows when the click is going to be heard the "try" just gets better and better. Why?  Like Alexandra says in her book, its the same as a person putting money in a slot machine, both horse and person want the reward but neither knows when its going to arrive so they keep offering the same behaviour. The person thinks if i put one more coin in the slot machine it may just be the magic one that wins me the jackpot, if i quit now i will lose everthing ive put in. The horse may think this lateral work is tiring im fed up with this now but if i try just a little harder she is bound to notice and give me a click.
As my voice commands have been conditioned as something that preludes the click when i feel the horse tire a little or i want just a little more the words "good boy" "that its" can become that carry on signal backed up with cues or aids with my hands and the rein. As i progress the clicker is slowly reduced until the movement rarly needs to be clicked again. The clicker is a teaching tool once the movement has been fully understood frequent clicks can be saved for other movements we are teaching. This is another area which confuses me, if repeated clicks are used to keep a movement going how can we then use it to teach something new as we have changed what the clicks mean.

I don't see why force should be used just because you are using Intermittent RF -- which shouldn't come in to play until after you have established the behaviour with a normal "Click-Reward". The Intermittent RF is for when you are phasing out the clicker, not for the initial stages. You ask for a behaviour that you have trained for, the horse does it correctly, you click, but don't treat, you ask again, the horse responds again, you click, you treat. Where is the force there? Is the horse suddenly going to stop performing if you withhold the treat? If so, that is a problem. It is this that can and does lead to rapid extinction. I don't see where the force is though. This kind of RF is used quite a bit in modifying childrens behaviour in remedial settings, not a place one would want to use force in any way.

If the intermittent reinforcement is for when the clicker is being phased out why in fact is it clicked more often? This makes it sound like the "treat" element of this teaching sytem is being phased out. Which isn't necessary.When i said force the movement to continue, this is what you would have to do to keep a horse moving once the click is heard, im not saying they wouldn't move until they received a treat, what confuses me is how do you explain to a horse that the contract has now changed a little, forget the treat part for a moment because the click also means carry on don't stop, now i want you to understand that the click also means good job but carry on doing what you are doing, maybe force is the wrong word but the cues and aids would need repeating for the horse to continue in movement which when first introduced would surely confuse the horse which previously was conditioned to stop for its treat.
None of the horses i have schooled would stop performing if the treat was withheld because the click is the reward they are wanting, and putting a movement on a variable reinforcement schedule can only increase extinction bursts, intermittent reinforcement on the other hand could and most probably would lead to rapid extinction! I can see why this type of reinforcement would work with children as children have a lodgic thought process unlike horses, im not saying this form of reinforcment doesn't work either but i can't see the point of using it with the conditioned responce which the clicker creates.

but the point must come when you no longer reward their behaviour, there are many situations where the clicker may not be to hand, and you need the horse to react the way you want him to... so the clicker must eventually go. Intermittent RF allows for a slower extinction than an abrupt stop. How does one eliminate the clicker?

As well as the clicker i condition a tongue click, fortunately we carry our tongue's everywhere!! :P This make ridden work a lot easier without having to hold a clicker as well as the reins! The clicker will eventually go once the behaviour has been taught, i school a horse back in manchester who had problems with cantering in the school, once the horse understood what was wanted the clicker was't used again. Personally i like to give the horse im riding a wage and use it more generally but it isn't necessary for it to be used continually. The clicker helps us teach the horse what spoken words mean, helps them understand what aids with our legs and hands mean, and rewards them for tryin.

Becky  
 

[Ebyss]

Thanks Becky, that explained a lot of what I needed to "fill in the gaps". I have the book belonging to the Video reviewed in this thread, but I got it so many yeays ago I can't remember what it said  :blink:  I had to go back to old psych books from college as well to be sure what I was saying was correct.

I still think the main difference is what you want the click to mean.. but whatever you want it to mean, I agree totally that changing it's meaning throughout training is going to be massively confusing. I wouldn't agree that the Intermittent RF would lead to faster extinction though, if done correctly.

I'm coming on the January course with the day of clicker training, and I'm dying to learn more about it. It seems like such a fantastic way to teach lateral movements without the typical "kick him until he gets it right" attitude

As well as the clicker i condition a tongue click, fortunately we carry our tongue's everywhere!!

Oh god.. you mean I have to give up clicking with my tongue for everything I do around horses? (It's a terrible habit of mine, I click when I'm calling them, riding them, grooming them.. with no rhyme or reason, like you would click for a dog. I need to get rid of that bad habit then.)

[thecatsmother]

Oh god.. you mean I have to give up clicking with my tongue for everything I do around horses? (It's a terrible habit of mine, I click when I'm calling them, riding them, grooming them.. with no rhyme or reason, like you would click for a dog. I need to get rid of that bad habit then.)

No (thank goodness!)   . The tongue click is a sort of "clock" sound, clicking the tongue with the lips rounded and the cheeks pushed out. So not the "normal" "cluck-cluck" sort of tongue-click. (Gawd, we all sound completely mad don't we    :lol: )

[Becky holden]

Hi Ebyss

Ive just read the link you put on an earlier post, and i can now see why intermittent reinforcements would lead to faster extintion but this is exactly what a variable schedule achieves with the clicker. The same as the rats pressing the lever wouldn't stop the behaviour from happening if it wasn't reinforced each time. The rats would still activate it just in case. The same as when i teach shoulder- in and don't reinforce each stride it won't stop the horse trying, thinking about it i suppose my voice becomes that intermittent reinforcement with the sound of the click being the ultimate jack pot! Sometimes i click after voice encouragement sometimes i don't.
Very thought provoking! An interesting link!

I still think the main difference is what you want the click to mean.. but whatever you want it to mean, I agree totally that changing it's meaning throughout training is going to be massively confusing

This was my concern, if the video was desrcibing some other was the clicker could be used fair enough but it wasn't. Target training ect is taught the same as i would but somewhere along the line the idea changes. I was just looking at it from a beginners point of view.

Oh god.. you mean I have to give up clicking with my tongue for everything I do around horses? (It's a terrible habit of mine, I click when I'm calling them, riding them, grooming them.. with no rhyme or reason, like you would click for a dog. I need to get rid of that bad habit then.)

Not at all!! I do the same!  :P  :P I use a clonk sound which is totally different than the comman "click,click,click, we make so no prob's there!! :P

Look forward to meeting you  

Becky  
 

[Becky holden]

desrcibing some other was the clicker

just read my post that should say way not was  :lol: my typing skills are cr**!!  :P  :P