Maintains Outline In Sitting Trot, But Not Rising

[Joy70]

anyone help me?? what am i doing wrong???

Had a schooling session with my boy yesterday, and my friend very kindly offered to come and help be my eyes on the ground, she also put out some trot poles on the corners for me! as todd gets very bored easily in the school.

We did some very nice work, and he softened in his mouth and came down into a beautiful outline, although a little low at times, my friend suggested that as we were heading (pardon the pun) in the right direction to let him work were he felt comfortable, so we did! she asked me to take up sitting trot, something i don't do very often! but we assumed sitting trot and this hollow backed on the forehand neddy of mine was transformed into a beautiful lil dressage pony, lovely paces nicely soft in the jaw and a beautiful outline, i was beaming  my friend then asked me to rise to the trot, which we did, and then sit again, we did this for a while, and assumed walk.

My friend noticed that while he would work beautiful at sitting trot as soon as i began to rise he would stop working thru his back end properly  so what is it that im doing wrong!

we continued the schooling session, and did some canter work, his canter was quite good too and he did very well, after jumping some grids and fences i went back to trot, sitting, then tried rising and he seemed to continue working through this time!

so what am i doing wrong that he won't work properly in rising trot, or is it just that he needs more time to warm up to work through at the rise???

bear in mind, this is probly the first time in nearly 11 years that he has EVER worked properly and im sooo chuffffed!  

[Mandeigh]

this is probly the first time in nearly 11 years that he has EVER worked properly

and isn't that a fab feeling!!!!  

Although it might not seem logical, rising trot can often be harder to achieve as there are changes i balance.  You can be flexible and able to feel the movement in sitting, but then when it comes to rising we are working a with the hip flexors controling the movment along with the concertina effect of the backmuscles.  
When I was taught to ride, I was told stand up sit down for trot......I guess these kind of instructions serve a purpose but in all reality its morelike a roll forward with the pelvis (still not exactly the best description) combined with the spinal movement and another poor instruction that helps you to fall backward is the instruction......heels down.....if you think of knees down instead, it makes the control of the rise and sit, thus not causing the loss of balance that makes the horse hollow.   Crieky if you understand that you are doing well, I am afraid typing it is more garbled than showing what happens..... phew  

[karen thompson]

Hi Joy - well done both of you !!!! And Mandeigh you are right What a feeling when it all comes together !!!!!!!!!!!

Another thing that sometimes happens is that when you are rising to the trot and not quite getting the movement right you tend to grip with your thighs which will make your lower leg come away from the horses side and cock out from the knee. As you are thinking about your knee going down try and be conscious of not gripping with it as if you are then the top half of your leg will be too ! With your legs wrapped gently aroung your horses sides you will be asking him to use his back end more - it will be more consistant aswell  and give him a clearer signal.

Hope this helps you  - let us know how you go.

Karen

[sandpiper]

There are a number of things which could be happening, not that I'm saying they are in your case, just suggestions.

When we do sitting trot, if we are in good balance with the horse then we are moving with him and not interfering with his movement.  We tend to let the horse take us along and don't create resistance via strong aids from our legs, seat and hands.  Of course if you are not in balance, then the horse will very soon let you know!

When we rise, very often we try to do too much rather than let the horse move us out of the saddle.  So it could be that you are rising too high, sitting down too heavily, you may be fiddling with the reins, your lower legs may be moving too much, you may be gripping.  Something I see often in rising trot is a constant nagging with the lower leg, and kicking with every step.  I have been guilty of this!

I am not saying any of the above is relevant to you but you may recognise something.  It may be just a subtle thing, but enough to make your horse react.

[Joy70]

it is indeed a fabulous if not a little wierd feeling, felt as though i'd got no neddy in front of me anymore!  

Thanks for the advice, its probly me being very unbalanced in my trot, and i have a tendancy to nag with my legs as usually in the school hes very slow to respond   execpt for Sunday! he was a dream to ride! and the jumping well we finished up jumping over 3' high fences, and some was done from a trot cause i managed to stuff up the canter turn! not his fault! and he still jumped them effortlessly! so come the show season my confidence will be at an all time high too  :lol:

Im going to try and work on my rising trot, i have been trying very hard, so that my pelvis follows and arc and only moves in time with my horse, and my head doesn't bob up and down, but even when he is working thru properly there isn't much movement from his back, is this normal?  

when i was a kid they used to have us doing rising trot in the school without stirrups would this excercise help? or would it make me use the wrong muscles??  

[Mandeigh]

when i was a kid they used to have us doing rising trot in the school without stirrups would this excercise help? or would it make me use the wrong muscles??

 OMG i had forgotten all about that...apart from possibly encouraging you to grip a bit with your knees....rising without stirrups does make you use your backand hip flexors more effectively and stops youfrom standing on the stirrups.....hey why not give it a go and see how things work?  Anyone around you got a video camera...sometimes its much easier if you can see what is going on?

[Joy70]

:( unfortunately i don't know of anyone with a video camera, or even a digital camera for that matter!

i think i'll give the stirrupless rising a go see what happens, at least that way i cannot rise too high, and i'll try to remember to let my knee stay loose, might get my friend to pop us on the lunge so im not fussing around with reins to begin with.

also is it normal for your stomach/abdominal muscles to ache a little when doing sitting trot? or would that be down to the sit ups i'd done that day too  

Im still on cloud 9 after Sundays schooling session, shame ive got to wait til next week to do some more work  :( ah well give it another week or so i think i'll be able to cram 20 minutes in before darkness envelopes us  :lol:  

[Mandeigh]

  think i'll give the stirrupless rising a go see what happens, at least that way i cannot rise too high, and i'll try to remember to let my knee stay loose, might get my friend to pop us on the lunge so im not fussing around with reins to begin with

sounds good!

also is it normal for your stomach/abdominal muscles to ache a little when doing sitting trot? or would that be down to the sit ups i'd done that day too

    guess what it takes very strong stomach (along with their paired backmuscles) to sit correctly as these muscles are usedin holding our posture or structure.......depending on what kind of sit ups you were doing   they just might be contributing to the ache too. .......you go girl!    

[Joy70]

:lol: i'll let you know how i get on without my stirrups next week    if im still capable of walking to the car to get into work of course    

[Mandeigh]

make sure you do a decent warm up and stretch before you  get on the horse that may just help stop the aches from being to much....otherwise, you could get a day off work....hot bath and lavender oil!!    

[Millie]

Hi Joy,

In rising trot, are you trying to keep your body upright? Are you returning to the saddle in the sit phase, with your buttocks in full contact? This could drastically affect your boys ability to work.

Heather

[Joy70]

to be perfectly honest im not sure of my position in rising trot   i think to be fair im probly slightly tilted forward with my upper body, and i try to control my rising so i don't land with a thump.  He doesn't seem to create a lot of movement thru his back, so ive been trying allow the movement to push me forward, cause i have those horrid pinging out legs sometimes  

would the rising trot without stirrups be a good excercise to try?  

[carlos]

Joy

Wipwoo - i bet he looks wonderful, stunning and cute all at the same time.  I'm glad you've found a way round the problems.  

Have you lengthened your stirrups a couple of holes whilst schooling? - it is much easier to rise and land softly than if your stirrups are short.

When i do rising trot i tend to rise very slowly and feel as though i haven't left the saddle at all.

Good luck with the practicing and keep up the good work which is obviously paying off.xx

Regards Kerry.x

[carlos]

Joy another quick one

Guess what-i've got a video camera  :P - give me a week or so to find it out and i'll come and video the both of you - then i get to see Todd again.

PM me if you fancy it.

Regards Kerry.x