A question about cobs

[abuela]

There are more PREs in Spain than cobs (lots more!). I have not come across many in the flesh, and I don't know much about them as a breed.

A friend has a beautiful mare - big, feathered, black and white, looks like a picture!  He says this  is an Irish Cob. He also says (his words) that she is the 'product of a  Shire mare and a traditional Irish Cob.'

I know there are some cob whizzes here, and I am interested to learn anything about what can really/ officially be called an Irish cob.

  - help appreciated

[OliviaR]

I am very happy to be put right on this, but my understanding is that a cob is a type rather than a breed (the Welsh Cob being an exception - as they are a breed as defined in the Welsh Pony and Cob Stud book).  Therefore anything can be called a cob if they look like one. 

There have been a couple of attempts to set up a societies to cover 'cobs' - but even those are about more thoroughly defining the type and are open to all sorts of breeding, providing the end product meets the guidelines set out.

Within showing it is again about a set of standards and any breed of horse can enter those classes providing they meet the required standards.  Traditionally show cobs had all their hairy bits cut off, but now there are more and more 'traditional cob' classes where they are showed in full feather.  Often these are limited to coloured cobs, but there do seem to be a lot more open to solid colour traditional cobs too.

The coloured Irish/gypsy cobs often have a variety of breeds used to improve them - the Dales pony being one that is often used.  My girl is most likely a Dales X coloured cob that came out a solid colour, so was shipped off as not much use  

[cirocco]

yes welsh cobs, sec D are a breed, as are Dales, and fell, all called cob so very confusing. The native new forest, or dartmoor, welsh sec C or A are never refered to as cobby, or a cob.

Cob was always a term used for a 'coarse'  heavy horse or pony, with or without feather. or a horse or pony of non recognised breeding, that is stocky, or a weight carrier.

Gypsy coloured cobs are often a mix of anything, mostly a very flashy full feathered stallion is used to cover anything from ponies to horses, the resulting foal is highly prized if its got good bone and loads of feather, along with long mane, 'as a feature'.
There are some lovely X welsh cobs with coloureds around where I live, travellers like to use the welsh cob x with their strong traditional full feathered cobs.

[Peaches]

[snip] welsh sec C [snip] are never refered to as cobby, or a cob.

Actually, just to complicate matters, the C's often are - partly because they are commonly grouped with D's for a welsh C & D class when showing, and hence are referred to by some (rightly or wrongly) collectively. But you're right that 'the' Welsh cob is the D.

My understanding is same as Cirocco and Olivia's regarding definition of a cob 

[Camacoona]

  Agree 

There are now moves to have the traditional cob recognised at a breed in its own right with DNA testing, gradings, and pedigree certification through The TGCA GB:
http://www.tgca.co.uk/

[OliviaR]

And just because I can't resist any excuse to post pics of my girl - here is my cob.  About 15hh2" high and 15hh2" wide.  LOTS of bone (boots that fit are nigh on impossible to find!) and LOTS of feather!






(mane looking a bit chewed out here because of her rug)

[cirocco]

  Yep, thats a true PROPER cob.

Lovely coat.

[whisper's mum]

Actually, just to complicate matters, the C's often are - partly because they are commonly grouped with D's for a welsh C & D class when showing, and hence are referred to by some (rightly or wrongly) collectively. But you're right that 'the' Welsh cob is the D.

My understanding is same as Cirocco and Olivia's regarding definition of a cob 

I agree with everyone else,  and yes, the Welsh Section C is a "welsh pony of cob type". 

[cirocco]

Thats very misleading but true. I've not seen a good sec C that I would judge to be of cob type that won in the show ring, they are all clean of limb, so very little feather, perhaps just a few long hairs. Id say most people that show a c would be really angry to have their pony termed cob. I would never have expected my sec c to be called a cob...
True cob's are a world apart. Good solid dependable types. 

[whisper's mum]

The old type of Section C was much heavier, they have got lighter over the last the 20yrs. I was told that Whisper is the "old stamp" whereas the one Fizzbw had, (Ianto, if you remember him, is the new type). Whisper did win, but only at local level. Mind you, there are different stamps of Section D and the fashions come and go. They changed again when the  height just became 13.2hh + and you now get them at 16.2hh!   To me, a Section D should be 14.2hh - 15.2hh which is more the size of the other cobs!  

Eta, just looked at the breed society and the Section Cs and Ds share a standard - the only difference is height.

Detailed Description of Sections C and D

General Character
Strong, hardy and active, with pony character and as much substance as possible

Colour
Any colour, except piebald and skewbald

Head
Full of quality and pony character. A coarse head and Roman nose are most objectionable

Eyes
Bold, prominent and set widely apart

Ears
Neat and well set

Neck
Lengthy and well carried. Moderately lean in the case of mares, but inclined to be cresty in the case of mature stallions

Shoulders
Strong but well laid back

Forelegs
Set square and not tied in at the elbows. Long, strong forearms. Knees well developed with an abundance of bone below them. Pasterns of proportionate slope and length. Feet well-shaped. Hoofs dense. When in the rough, a moderate quantity of silky feather is not objected to but coarse, wiry hair is a definite objection.

Middlepiece
Back and loins, muscular, strong and well-coupled. Deep through the heart and well-ribbed up.

Hind Quarters
Lengthy and strong. Ragged or drooping quarters are objectionable. Tail well-set on.

Hind Legs
Second thighs, strong and muscular. Hocks, large, flat and clean, with points prominent, turning neither inward nor outwards. The hind legs must not be too bent and the hock not set behind a line falling from the point of the quarter to the fetlock joint. Pasterns of proportionate slope and length. Feet well-shaped. Hoofs dense.

Action
Free, true and forcible. The knee should be bent and the whole foreleg should be extended straight from the shoulder and as far forward as possible in the trot. Hocks flexed under the body with straight and powerful leverage.

Sorry for taking it a bit off topic Abuela! 

[SueWhitmore]

Fells, Dales and Highlands are *ponies* not cobs. All these have two distinct types, historically the pack lines and the riding lines. The pack lines are ponies of a cob type. Cobs are weight carriers which is where they differ from draft types, who are weight pullers. A cob should be level, draft horses are slightly uphill. And excellent example of a really good draft - made for the job - is the Suffolk Punch.

Abuela, most of our native cobs and show cobs have a massive amount of Iberian in them - the horses have been imported to the UK for probably at least 3000 years. True British natives would not normally exceed about 12h 2" in the north and 13h 2" in the south. Anything larger needs additional management and was produced deliberately by the introduction of alien stallions.

[OliviaR]

Yes sorry I should have been clear - dales mares were used to improve the cob lines NOT that dales ponies are cobs

[OliviaR]

Also, although dales ponies were weight carriers (acting as pack ponies bringing lead over (I think) the penines) by the 19th century they we expected to fulfill a variety of roles.leading to the oft repeated "they should pull the plough Monday to Friday, take the farmer hunting on Saturday and pull the family trap to church on Sunday"

[lmevans]

"face of the parlour maid, bottom of the cook"

that's what I was always told for a good cob!



Welsh C & D are indeed the same breed standard, just a height difference. And locally here at county level the good C's are indeed like mini D's, with good bone, light feather, long manes and heavy tails and that distinctive movement.

Gypsy cobs have been bred to specific lines and 'type' for generations, and most good gypsy types can tell you their horse's bloodlines back several generations at least. There's not much random crossing or mixing in of any old coloured horse, they're as serious about bloodlines and lineage as any other breed officienado, it's just that the lines weren't necessarily written down, recorded and published. I can name Tonka's bloodlines back four generations, with a few scatterings back to the fifth. The romany I borrowed his parents off was very proud of his cobs and their lineage and wouldn't have been caught dead mixing in any riff raff! There was some Dales and Fell crossing in, mainly for the leg movement as they have great 'step' and some shire blood to bring height and feather (but that is old style shire around 15.2hh or 16hh, not these great leggy giant they nreed nowadays that couldn't pull the skin off a custard, as the saying goes!  )

But for a good 30-40 years, all the gypsy breeders I know have just been selectively breeding within type for the cobs they liked. As a result some families have gone smaller and are now producing 13hh types with excessive hair, while others have gone for more height etc etc. Tonka's mother was prized for her mane and tail, and the fact she passed it on. Whereas his dad was a son of The Lion King, sadly now deceased.
http://www.bigskygypsy.com/Lion%20King.htm

and this is Tonk's half brother
http://www.mccartneystud.com/mccartneyshighlandprince.htm

[intouch]

From Wikipedia -
Show cobs in the United Kingdom are overseen by the British Show Horse Association (BHSA), formerly known as The British Show Hack, Cob and Riding Horse Association. Cobs are registered in three divisions: lightweight (minimum of 8½” bone), heavyweight (minimum of 9” bone), or Maxi Cob exceeding 155 cms. The classes where cobs are shown also have a similar breakdown:
 Lightweight Cob – mare or gelding 4 years old and over, exceeding 148cms, but not exceeding 155cms, capable of carrying up to 14 stone (196 pounds).
 Heavyweight Cob – mare or gelding 4 years old and over, exceeding 148cms, but not exceeding 155cms, capable of carrying more than 14 stone.
 Maxi Cob exceeding 155cms - to be judged as Cobs. Judges must pay particular attention to type (i.e. short legged animals of Cob type). Preferably to be shown hogged.
 
Maxi Cobs are treated a bit differently from other divisions. The highest placed animals qualify for the Maxi Cob final at the National Championship show. Winners of these classes are not eligible for open cob championships.