Lack of expression in some Classical Methodologies...

[Camacoona]

Dressage (French Classical) of Francois Baucher

Hope this works!!

I've got the full DVD, some stuff to like, a lot better than much of the force we see in competition dressage, but a bit 'flat' if you know what I mean?

So what do you think is missing from this training and the training of Desi that resulted in this lack of expression?  I don't want to hijack CremeBrulee's thread but think that could be a useful discussion.

[Camacoona]

oh it did!  I've surprised myself there!

Ok  What do people think is 'expression'?  Power? Forwardness? etc

What is 'missing' that would create more expression?

What schooling techniques would be used to develop this?

[catkin]

OKayyyyy............

a view from a complete numpty here:
to me 'expression' is a sense of joy and sparkle in every move the horse takes, rejoicing in their own abilities rather than just 'doing it' - similar to 'presence' really and as difficult to define.
I think it can be seen in all sorts of horses from the tiny lead-rein pony looking after their little rider, to the hunter who knows they're going to the meet, from the steeplechaser leaping from outside the wings just because he can, to a Welshie extending their trot through puddles 'cos it's fun........

[HayleyC]

I know nothing but to me those horses seem to lack passion. They seem to be 'just doing it' and all I can see in those horses is nothing in their eyes. Im not sure whether it is because Im used to seeing horses that are sooo eager to work or seeing less finer build horses doing it but they come across bored some of them. I do think its flat compared to what Ive seen others do. I know nothing anyways

[Camacoona]

Well I suppose seen as though I brought up the hows, whys and wherefores I should put forward my thinkings.

I really quite liked the video and didn't necessarily think it lacked expression as such, at the time of watching it but can understand why other's may think this.

I wonder whether it is partly down to a couple of reasons: ( And I do understand these horses are a work in progress and these issues will no doubt be being dealt with in their training)
1, I know it is French school, but I would still want to see more 'forward' movement as in allow the trots out a little more while maintaining the nice rhythm.  What I mean is allow the stride out and leghten a little more without running on.
2, I like the fact that there was no tendancy for the horses to be deep in any way, but at times the contact was variable.  I would have liked to have seen steadier head carriage without the brachs showing quite as much. (I know these horses were not the finished articles and I know these will issues will be dealt with) 
3, When the horse was showing a passage, I would have classed it as a 'soft' passage, and even I would want a bit more expression and developemnt of the 'passage rhythm'. It wasn't to me a deux passage as such and needed developing further.

Schooling methods to develop this expression?
a, Maybe transitions between the coiling exercises and using this stored energy in a bigger stride without changing the rhythm too much.
b, Transitions trot-rein back-trot developing the coiling in the RB and the rhythm in the forward phase.
... getting a bit late now may think of something else tomorrow...

[ParisDiamond]

What jumped out at me was how ewe necked most of the horses were - surely that's not right if they're using their bodies properly?  The only bit I liked was with the old guy in a cap working the bright bay from the ground, the rest of it I'd happily ignore and look elsewhere for inspiration. 

[Della]

It looks from the clips shown of the various horses that there is little or no contraction of the scalenes so that the lower cervical curve has not started to flatten, hence perhaps, the appearance of ewe necks Tracey has commented on.

I think that the raising of the base of the neck by the flattening of the lower curve of the cervical is an essential part of schooling but it requires a degree of delicacy from the trainer and it appears to me that it is something that can easily be overlooked when the flexions are taught.

Of course, none of us know how the masters of old actually worked their horses and excellent as translations of their works are, they still remain translations. However, to achieve the results that they are reputed to have achieved, I believe that Baucher et al must have been acutely aware of the importance of the lower cervical spine.

As to 'expression'. I think I agree with Catkin - but I it is something that is very subjective.

[Mossy]

A view from a total numpty here. In most cases the rider seems to be bouncing. Therefore surely the horse can't use it's back properly. The legs are doing the right thing either end but they are not joined by the muscular bridge in the middle, hence the strange neck carriage and lack of expression. Probably rubbish but just my thoughts.

[Camacoona]

I agree about the horse Racinet was riding, I didn't care for the way the Grey Arab type was going, and Agree about the horse's neck.  I too spend more time with a longer lower outline getting the hose connected to the bit and developing rythm.

[Talltails]

I am just someone who enjoys watching horses moving beautifully, and know very little about the technical aspects of training. But for me, expression is a measure of the aspects of the horse's attitude to what he or she is doing, that are visible to us humans observing (or indeed, riding  ).  So a horse who is not enjoying the movements he or she is being asked to make will appear "flat", I suppose, whereas a horse who feels delight, understanding or enjoyment of the movement will seem more expressive and joyful.

I mainly see horses moving in a similar way to the horses in the clip in US dressage videos?  It may simply be the breed of horse, or it may be the method of training, I don't know.  Horses from other parts of the world may look tense, exuberant or joyful, but regardless, they look quite different in their way of moving from the ones in the clip.

The horse in the Alizée Froment clip, on the other hand, seemed to me to be very expressive.

[ParisDiamond]

It looks from the clips shown of the various horses that there is little or no contraction of the scalenes so that the lower cervical curve has not started to flatten

oooo thanks for the technical spiel for what I was seeing 

[renta]

I think riders sat balanced and very immobile . The motion didn´t come out in wrong places. There were some horses with not so good conformation but I didnt consider the neck so bad. Too little impulsion YES considering what we have accustomed to?
Old masters talked about jaw flexion and I wondered and wondered what they really meant: the jaw can only open and shut and make eating movements like moving sideways also back and forwards." It´s flexion between the head and the neck - must be .

[Heather]

I agree with Cathy and Della- expression to me, is a joie de vivre in the work, that gives life and lift to the paces, as in the Alizee Froment clips. I do think that some of the horses for instance also in the latest Bent Branderup DVD seemed lacking in expression- although with far more correct musculature than in the LM Maxwell clip.

I mentioned on the other thread, that some of Desi Lorent's horses also seemed to be rather flat in their movement, almost shuffling, with insufficient spring from diagonal to diagonal in trot, for instance. He slowed them down to the degree whereby they lost that spring and it was more of a soft jog perhaps. I have film of Racinet doing the same.

Some of OLiveira's horses had great expression, others did not, but this didnt seem to concern him either. We ride the school movements in a very slow, cadenced collected trot at Luis Valencas, but I certainly wouldn't say the horses lacked expression, the trot is not flat and lifeless, just slow and very cadenced.

Luis uses flexions and you would never see a horse at CELG with an upside down neck- perish the thought!!

For me, true French equitation is based on collection, early in the education, but it shouldnt produce lifeless work, the horse needs to be in front of the leg first, which would mean sending them more forwards to begin with, otherwise the work will flatten.

I would then get the expression  through reinback and the counted walk. This is how I will be working with young Luso, Boo, but in Reno's case, I need to slow everything down before he will be able to progress!

[Camacoona]

I go looking for a like button too!!  then I remember where the like buttons are...FB

[Heather]

Maria and Omar, I keep going to press the 'like' button too, until I remember we havent got one!! Don't think any forums do!