I've got myself in a tricky situation.

[Minstrel]

Seamus and I have been working hard on leading - he didn't really have a 'forward' 
and I've been working on it by waiting when he stopped and not getting after him by swinging ropes or
putting any pressure on him at all, this was great when we were alone in our isolation field
all summer, as we didn't actually have to go anywhere!!  Now we are back on the yard and in and out of the stable/field
he is happy to go and very rarely plants
When he does plant it's because he's scared of something ( never sure what  ) so I did 'head down' to calm him
and then we went forwards again, the trouble is that 'head down' then meant it was ok to eat grass. 
So I thought...... OK...... training hole identified
I needed an 'eat' and a 'dont eat' cue.
So eat was 'stroke mane' and 'head up' is vibrating lead rope and making kissing sound - mega favourite treat of course for
actually getting head back up again.

It's all hopeless though as now he just decides to eat grass when I'm taking him to and from his field it takes ages to get him
to leave it and that's only when he's got his mouth so full he cant actually eat any more.  I do click and treat him when he does put
his head up but feel aggrieved as he wasn't asked to eat and he didn't leave it in an acceptable time but I'm not sure what else to do ???

In the olden pre-clicker days he didn't dare eat so I've made matters lots worse when in general our relationship has got better so I don't want to go back to dragging him around and lots of neg reinforcement.

Can anyone give me some direction on this one?

[Beth]

Ok, I'm no expert at ct, but here is a thought 

My pony is as good as gold re not putting his head down to eat, *except* when I'm pushing a wheelbarrow and leading him with it.  He started using my lack of attention as an opportunity to grab a few sneaky mouthfuls.  What worked (and continues to at the moment) was clicking and treating a few strides of walking nicely with his attention on me.  As seems usual with ct, I have prolonged the length of time between clicks so we can make it to field with only a couple of stops. Might help with your chap?

[hilary]

Hiya,

Beth's idea is a good one.

One thing that may help  -  is to change the environment, so perhaps he cant eat, when you don't want him to. By that , I mean perhaps walk with you hands close to your body , with the lead rope long enough so loose when walking along, but short enough so he cant actually reach the ground,, The reason to have you hands close to your body is so you can use your core stability/strength("TAI chi/martial arts strength style) , and act as a post, rather than getting into a pulling match  , when his head is going down and your hands are away from your side. . Yes, pressure will be applied  -  by him, not you. If your hands are already close into the midline of your body  - you are not pulling, rather he is.

Then you can c/t for him walking with his nose in whatever position you want. Or take a target or similar. Then you can let him eat , then slide down the rope ( best as he has just taken a bite- head comes up easier), to get head up,

Cheers
Hilary

[Appy2quarter]

Another couple of thoughts -

Make coming back to the yard really appealing (and being turned out also if he's slow) by giving him something really yummy he only gets at these times.

One thing Hilary did with Lottie under saddle is that she 'could' eat, BUT if she did, she would then be asked to trot.  Being a conservative soul, this puts her off eating    So you potentially could say to him - yep, of course you can eat, but if you do I will then ask you to do something difficult.  However this does depend on his personality - if he'd take exception to this approach then obviously its not for you.

Hilary's approach above is a good one so that you are keeping their brain occupied - ie on head position - as well as restricting their ability to get to that green stuff!!  You could also always give a cue word before you do let them eat so you have that cue under saddle or any other time you need it.  I teach my dogs the 'go sniff' command (their equivalent of eating grass).

Like Beth, I was also going to suggest the 100 peck pigeon idea.  In other words gradually extend the number of steps before he'd be allowed a treat/grass.  I used it with Loly out hacking and although it took a while the first few hacks asking him to walk out properly, it soon built up.  Do be prepared for a plateau though - he may decide that its always going to be 10 steps for example.  At this point its a case of just being quietly persistent and explaining to him that a bit more effort and patience is required 

Good luck

[Minstrel]

O thanks  for some great ideas 
I had got really stuck and your ideas seem obvious
things to try now you've said them 
it's really helpful to have a forum like this !
I shall let you know how we get on 

[Beth]

You're right about the forum, I've found it really helpful too! Good luck  

[Minstrel]

Just an update to say thanks its going much better now.  I am using a combination of all your ideas
and we are getting to and from the field fine already.  I think holding the rope close to my body was
a real breakthrough I can walk along with him on a smiley rope and when he lowers his head that bit
far he seems to understand that's far enough and brings it back up again I'm sort of amazed. 

Unfortunately my cue for head-lowering is sliding my hand down the rope so that wont work as a head up cue

[hilary]

re your last comment - I think there is your intent and what you say down the rope - rather than just sliding your hand down the rope for HD. You may want to put the nose on the floor -  but particularly for riding you do want to be able to fill in all the gaps -  ie flat top line and poll in front of vertical, elevated poll, and the ability to put the head down. So what rope cue are you going to use for head up?

Glad things are going well

[Minstrel]

Thanks Hilary
Hmm I hadn't thought of all that  heavens I see what they mean about Clicker Training
being a 'way of life' 
So is what you are getting at ? ... that I can use sliding my hand down the rope in different ways to mean different
things to him ? .....like I was reading in Jensen's blog? (I cant find where it was now but it was something about rotating your bone
and bringing his head up in a smooth motion.  I guess this is all the Tai Chi rope work that I havn't learnt about.... YET.....
and just to think a mere few years ago I thought that all you had to do to ride a horse was sit on it, kick for go and pull to stop

[Beth]

How's it going?

[Shelby]

I watched a display at Equitana Australia some years ago by a chap whose name I have forgotten. He was free schooling/lunging  his horse (no rope) and gave hand cues for head up, collected and head down, long and low. Walk, trot and canter, it was wonderful. I would love to teach my horse this!
Great that you have overcome the problem. I also had the grass eating issues and didnt want to get into a battle with my horse and trash the relationship but don't forget the relationship is based on respect. If the horse doesnt respect you  he wont trust you (and vice versa) and this is the foundation for the relationship we want. Yours wont eat from the bucket/hay pile until the -I hate to say 'dominant' because I dont want to give the wrong message- more respected horse lets him. I found the more I actually didnt allow my horse to do things, the more obedient he became. Of course this isnt the same as micro-managing him, once he is doing something - gait, direction, etc, its his responsibility to maintain that until I change it.
If your horse doesn't repect you then stopping or changing behaviours isn't so easy and this is when lesser people resort to force and intimidation.
Respect is also completely different to fear.