More canter woes

[cirocco]

ive gone totally from one exreme to another.    Rocky boingy, forward going and athletic, Jim a different kettle of fish.
Not boingy, only forward going if he has to be.... and as athletic as a square short legged beast can be. Suppose i shouldn't compare the two, but I do.

Of course its better than it was even just a few months ago, when he was unable to canter round a corner without feeling that he needed to change legs. Now he's more balanced, and with all the work were doing, he is getting much better, but he still backs off.
We understand that its a huge difference for him, 2 years of being a lead rein [ mostly ] pony to potential dressage pony, is a huge ask. its not been that long. Less than a year of schooling, perhaps only about 80 hours in total.
He's cautious when asked to go... so canter is 'and has been', a struggle for me to get him going, and worse to keep going. I have never had a pony that just doesn't have any desire to canter on.
Yesterday I was exhausted after the canter session.
Im not sure if its a fitness thing, or a lack of interest in cantering, or if he's just a lazy beast.

Anyone any imput

[ros]

Well, you did say anyone 

You don't say in what situation Jim isn't enthusiastic about canter? Personally I don't really care about canter in a school - I tend to save it for out in the fields because our school is a bit on the small side...

So what exactly was the "canter session" that exhausted you so much 

[yvonnemzz]

He probably needs to have 'fun'. Working in an arena is notorious for 'shutting' some horses down.
In the past I've taken horses with this issue to the beach for a good old hooley along the sands or even hunting. Even just riding in a small group or with an onward bound horse along side and let him make of it what he will. Don't restrain him with the reins and give lots of praise when he takes you forward. If fitness is an issue at the moment, don't maintain canter for too long each time. Make each transition short and sweet, bringing him back to the trot before he does it himself. This often has the effect of the horse actually wanting to keep on going as it takes more effort for him to come back to trot than it does to keep cantering.
Hope this helps.

[cirocco]

I do hacking, so he's not bored, but ive a struggle to get him to actually 'walk' away from home, ok returning...  it's like pushing a jelly uphill. Turn him round and its all systems... and little legs go.
Ive ridden with a forward going horse, he lags behind and needs urging. ive cantered him over the field, but he'd rather trot.
Ive done the short schooling sessions, no trot, a bit of trot, and weeks off with no schooling at all. ive schooled out hacking, and done in hand work. 
Today we went for a hack over the bridleway, he's interested in everything around, and likes to walk, but ask for trot, and he will only do ten strides before pulling himself up, ive constantly to get him going again. I dont nag him dont keep up kicking, so he's not ignoring my legs, he just is very very lazy.
I asked for canter on a nice flat bit, poo he said, two strides....trot.
he lives out, has freedom to mooch its not as if he's locked away in a stable.

Ive done the loose rein cantering, and short bits with lots of transitions, he anticipates a transition, and will stop dead if I cant catch him in time.
its like I cant do too much rein back, otherwise If i stop for a plain halt, he will scoot himself backwards, even with my leg on
I have good hands, and dont restrict him, and he has a lovely mouth, so no need to take a hold, he never has pulled.

i dont think that two schooling sessions a week is too much, so im at a loss.

He 'liked' his past life. He was a 'couch potato', and he loved being 'retired', without being asked to do anything, hence i think why he was so humongus. A hack is hard work. he 'likes' to walk like a slug....

Why did the canter session exhaust me?? it was just such bloomin hard work. Keeping him going, when he was hesitating and bringing himself back to trot.

[yvonnemzz]

Could be that lack of fitness really is an issue with him. If he comes home 'all systems go' then I would be inclined to walk him out as far from home as possible and then encourage him to come home at a faster pace (not something I would usually recommend with the more forward going types) and do this as oftren as possible to try and increase his level of fitness over a period of time. I did have a similar problem with one of my warmbloods after I'd got home backed and ridden away at the age of 5. He would not even trot away from home for more than 6 or 7 steps before walking again, even with company. This went on for a good 18 months! but I was determined not to nag him even though we were often left behind by our riding companions. Eventually, he got fitter and found it easier and finally started to maintain trot for longer but it was a very long process I'm afraid.

[cirocco]

Yes thats just it. Maddening!!!..

Usually its all about boinging speedy horses that race off. Its not usual to have a slug on here is it.

Im hoping to get william out next week, either ride willi lead Jim, or the other way round, I'll have to see which way works. I think perhaps leading Jim would be the right way, then he will 'have' to keep up.

[Camacoona]

Hmmm.

Do you ever lunge him?  if you do what's he like when lunging?

[cirocco]

No I never lunge, never have. ive not got a good enough surface at home.
We did try lunging him when i took him for lessons. jayne did some work with him, mainly trot work, because he was so unbalanced and disunited in the canter we decided that it was easier to ride school him for his canter work, then i could correct it quicker, rather than letting him carry on wrong.
So no is the answer to that, he is never lunged.
Why?? do you think he would be better lunged to get him going on.

I would have thought he had a problem, if id not seen the way he gallops about leaping and jumping in the field. Plus last week there were deer in  the trees that startled him, he came back to us about 400mph, flat out gallop.
When he had the spate of whoop de whoop a few weeks ago, he would be pootling round, then zoom off in a good fast canter, nothing holding him back then. It seems if its on his terms, then its ok.

Jayne says he's a lazy little critter, she might be right. Just bl**dy lazy. 

[Camacoona]

Well first of all, I am not saying this is Jim's problem at all, and I know you have more than capable help with JJ so these musings are from my experiences with horses I have had in for schooling and certainly not advice for you with your little chap!

A lot of the time that a horse is lazy, he is 'misunderstanding' the aids and is a bit confused.  This often happens when the early backing/education hasn't been thorough and some steps which I make sure are put in place with my horses, others just ignorse and bash on ahead with riding.  Generally at backing, the horses understand the lunge whip, and move forward when the aid is given.  The problem usually arrises when the horse is newly backed and the education to the leg is still ongoing.  I would tend to continue aiding with the whip (the aid the horse understands) while my rider aids lightle with his/her legs.  A good rapor is needed between trainer and rider and good timing is needed.  I just think this type of trining helps to avoid the kick kick kick philosophy of so many trainers.   A lot (if not most or even all) of the 'lazy' horses I have had in for schooling have had this problem, and when they are taught the meaning of the leg, and they fully understand it, they transform into an easy light mount.

Again I am not saying this is the route for you an Jim. Just another point of view that may help you come to a plan of action with Jim.  Hope it makes sense.

[catkin]

Another thought from  different angle - is some of this Native Pony sagacity and looking-after-themselves? 

My Welshie likes to make sure everything is safe and wherever it is supposed to be before proceeding. She is also inclined to stop rather than spook around. It's just her, and its a very fine line to tread - I get it wrong lots!!!

[cirocco]

Omar I think your right. he had been well schooled at little trees, and ive had a conversation will Emma Wooley who did the schooling, he was certainly ok when he left there.
Ive done a bit of work finding out where hes been and doing for the 3 years between leaving there and me getting him, seems very little.
In hand showing mainly, and then a lead rein x lead rein hack, and hacking with non rider. So 3 years without any sort of schooling.
Its been baby steps last year, he's had to learn re learn everything. He didn't know anything so i suppose his first schooling would have been very basic. As you say prob just lunging etc. Now he's had to learn half halts, with strong legs, so confusing for him, because he takes everything quite literally.  I think he's just going to need time. I'm loosing sight of what I want perhaps, and pushing him too hard too soon.
Im thinking I might just look for a more athletic, more advanced horse and let jim have time, let him be my little project rather than him having to stretch to be a dressage pony, he might never take to it, some cant.

catkin, your lucky to have a stopper, my william would sooner spin, drop a shoulder and go..having come from the welsh ponies, who 'usually' are very forward, jim has different and new problem to have to solve.

[catkin]

catkin, your lucky to have a stopper, my william would sooner spin, drop a shoulder and go..having come from the welsh ponies, who 'usually' are very forward, jim has different and new problem to have to solve.

I know, and with a wise young head in traffic - which is why I am accepting the 'no-go' and I'm finding it such a fine line to travel with schooling, don't want to mess up the other very good bits. Having said that I'm finding that she's actually better now the weather's turned and there's a bit more Welsh fire to the paces.

[cirocco]

Yes the welsh are wonderful I have been offered a lovely 6yr old black gelding, at a very cheap price, and that is simply because they are out of fashion, and there are so many about. But I wanted to break from welsh cob's.
Its easy to stick with what you know, and difficult to leave them alone, manily because they really can do everything, 'and' that fire is just wonderful. once its controlled, but they are not for the weak, feint hearted are they...

I took it very slowly with william, mainly because it took him so long to grow. He was 7 when he stopped 'spurting'.  He was backed at 3.1/2 and ridden at 4, Schooled and competing in dressage at 6, broken to drive and driven at 7. BUT he was evil. he's the only horse to drop me in 50 years!. He did it twice. No warning. Better driven, and great for my OH.  He's lamanitic, and insulin resistant, prone to bouts of lami, that have taken him to the edge more than once. He's 18 now, and retired, but still has that fire and bounce in the field, and that look at me air about him.. I do love the welsh ponies.

A glum looking OH on the 17 year old william last summer.
breeding=  He's by Cittir Telynor