Lunging video - advice please (new vid added)

[Casey76]

Hi all,  I've finally got some video of Pinto lunging.  I need to sort out my camera placement though :(  Although you can only just hear my commands, I'm hoping you can give me some advice.

Basically am I doing anything wrong - anything I'm doing right?  And what should be my next steps... e.g. how do I encourage Pinto to stretch down a bit more?

We're both fairly novice lungers, and this is the calmest I've seen Pinto lunging - the difference... using a leather cavesson!

Thanks in advance for any potential advice you can give me!

Lunging 12 Sep 2011 0001

[SueWhitmore]

OK, the "right" first. Pinto goes nicely out on the circle.

What I need to ask is have you ever had any training in lunging?  Because I can see one thing that is affecting everything you do and I don't think you would do this if you had had training.

You are focusing on his head, and this is changing the whole angle of your body - you are in effect blocking his forward movement with you body, because you are always in front of him. When you lunge, you have to imagine a right angle triangle. The base is your horse's body, the perpendicular is your whip hand - running from that hand to his point of hip, and the long hypotenuse runs between your hand, the rein, and the cavesson. You focus on the point of the horse's hip and imagine *driving* the horse forward into the movement from behind. It would probably help you if you walked a small circle in the middle, following the horse's movement, rather than pivoting on the spot.

Also, why are you lunging him? He is not active and so there is no athletic benefit (from what I have seen). If you are using it for calmness training, you would be better long reining.

As I said on the other thread, you need to be clear about your objectives - what you want to do, why you want to do it, and then it will become clear what sort of help you need. Be honest about your objectives - if you just want to have fun, say so. If you want to compete, say that. If you are only worrying because you think you *ought* to do things, but don't *really* care - then don't bother, just enjoy what you do. No one really cares how good or otherwise anyone else is, whatever we may think!

Your video must be huge, it is barely loading at all - stuck at 1:21 on Youtube.

[Casey76]

Hi Sue, thank you soooo much for your input 

While I haven't had any "official" training in how to lunge (a la BHS), I was shown how to on several occasions by a firend when I first bought Pinto.  I wonder if my position is "defensive" because we've had so many issues with him bogging off in the past, it is something I can certainly address, and practice!

I'm lunging for 2 reasons really, for exericse and to (try and) improve his way of going.  I'm not sure why you get stuck on 1m12  but is is just then when we actually start trotting

You say he's not active... can you tell me what I should be looking for to increase his activity?  Personally, and of course this is just my opinion lol, but I thought he was going quite well in walk, with good over track and OK hock flexion - OK I realyise he's not going "in a shape" etc, but I'm pretty pleased considering that this was his first time lunging in about a year(?)

If you managed to see any of the trotting, again, can you give me any pointers on what I should be looking for etc?  I know I'm standing pretty much static in this video, but normally I would use the full length of the school

Again, thanks so much for your time 

[Jo*]

Interesting tips from Sue, the only thing is that I was taught that when you lunge you stand in a equilateral triangle, not a right angled triangle! So you are neutral and then you can move to a driving position (the right angled triangle you describe) or a blocking position. As shown here: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_DTlKzO9xaQA/TMuBVq4p70I/AAAAAAAAAaw/TRlOce8XUyY/s1600/basic_lunging.png

Anyway, I'd like to say that considering you call yourself a 'novice' lunger, you're doing well, Pinto is calm and relaxed, staying out on a circle and responding well to your voice aids. When you look at the video what do you see? And how would you like to improve it? Does the video show all of your lunging session or did you do more work after the video?

[SueWhitmore]

 Jo, I am a  lot older than you - so I was taught in a very old fashioned way - where a horse would always be "driven" on the ground (long reined) before lungeing commenced. So the idea was to get the horse moving forward. Neutral is fine, once you get it right, but it is too easy to get left behind (i.e. in front of the movement) - you are in much better position to control the horse if your body is inclinded to the horse, with your whip hand innermost. It is all a bit academic for me these days, as I spend most my time tripping over the lunge line, or getting it untangled from my legs first and then the horses' legs, while they look on in pitying disgust.  Arthritic hands and dodgy knees do not assist when lunging!

I did manage to see the rest of the video, and he wasn't really putting any effort into the movement, so there would be not much exercise benefit. I would expect to see the feet higher off the ground and a lot more flexion from a horse that was really working.

BTW, if you are pointing in the same direction as the horse (virtually) it is almost impossible for a horse to bog off when you have 8m of lunge line. You have massive leverage and you can exert it by stepping back.

[Jo*]

Thanks for that Sue, I am not the most proficient lunger either! I certainly do skip between accidentally blocking and then driving, finding peace in that 'neutral' position is something I don't achieve very often! Thanks for your comments.

[Casey76]

OK, here is our latest effort from tonight.  It's a bit long, sorry, but my editing software has decided to die :(

At about 5:20 I pick up my in hand whip, and you can see quite clearly how it effects Pinto!  This is a very modest reaction, and I'm hoping that we wil be able to use this whip in future after some work



Click the image

[Jo*]

What do you think? I think you need to be brave and think about what you would like to see in Pinto, then I will give my comments. Do you think this work is improving his paces? Do you think he is getting alot of exercise from this session? These are the two goals you set yourself for lunging and do you think you are achieving them?

[Casey76]

Well, considering at the moment all I'm doing is getting him used to being lunged again I'm satisfied as to how tonight went.  Tonight was the most amount of trot work he has done since May when he came up lame, and I want to keep the trotting short and sweet, and increase by increments.

At the moment I'm trading off working on a circle and me riding.  If I was riding I wouldn't let him trot for so long.

Anyway, I think he was more forward tonight, with me taking a more driving position.  He was rushing a lot when I was holding the whip, but this is nothing unexpected for me.

[Jo*]

Good, brilliant, well done for analysing it yourself  Its more important that you see the improvements or notice when there aren't any than anyone on here telling you whether there are or not! As long as you're noticing improvements then your going in the right direction, trust yourself and your horse. I think there was a definite improvement and well done for picking up the whip! One point though- you bent down, picked the whip up and stood up very quickly and I thought it alarmed Pinto a bit. Try to make your movements very slow and controlled, breathe and be very relaxed when you pick it up, same as when you put it down, when he slows to a walk then you can reward him by slowly and controlledly putting the whip down. Obviously if he is charging round the school in blind panic then drop the whip asap, but if you can get him to come back to walk, make if very obvious to him that the whip is just going to be picked up and put down again with no drama. If you're gradually building up the trot then you are right to start him off slowly- if he was in harder work then I would say push him on to a more active, but this is why it is so important for you to assess your progress because only you know the full story. I would also make sure to always use the same vocal cue everytime, I think you tried to get him to trot with a few different words/tones of voice, it will make it easier for him to understand. Also, to use your body language to signal for him to change gait as well as your voice at the beginning as you can progress to no vocal commands and just a slight dip of your head or something similar but this is of much less importance. Keep assessing what you see in front of you and trusting your own judgement

[SueWhitmore]

Definite improvement in parts. Altho' I did think the only time he put any effort into it was when you picked up the whip.  Where was he lame? Because his right hock didn't look quite right to me, quite a lot of the time (but not all) he wasn't picking up his right hind as far as the left. Has he got slightly arthritic hocks?

One thing I noticed - can't remember if it was this vid or the last, but when you asked him to halt, you ended up facing in the opposite direction to him. Horses won't stop when you stop, in synchronicity, until they are working with you completely, so what you need to do is to step backwards to start with - always remain in the same direction as the horse. Your walking was much better, work on timing your steps to the horses hind legs, once you start working in time, you start to develop the synchronicity. Also, your whip hand needs to be pointing towards the horse, wherever you body position is - at the moment it is sticking out sideways, and you are "containing" his movement rather than creating a funnel for him to move through. (Metaphorically speaking, of course.) Think about moving the horse forward with your shoulder - your whip hand shoulder - if you are on the left rein, this is your right shoulder and it should be the outside shoulder - that is *nearest* to the horse, think of two horses working side by side. At the moment, that shoulder tends to come back, so is on the inside, which means you are working in the opposite direction to the horse. But it was much better.

And just to make you laugh, this is my norty boy - he always flies around like a maniac for 5  minutes when you start to lunge him. He's got me out of position, he was going so fast! 



Five minutes later, better...... but I am still out of position, so it is a case of do as I say, not as I do......  This pics are so dark because it was almost dark! 



This one is of Becky Holden lunging him - she is a genius with ground work, and notice how her rein shoulder is pushed back away from the horse, mimicking the inside shoulder. If you are anywhere near her, I would get her to come and give you a groundwork session.

[Casey76]

Jo and Sue, again many thanks for your input

Sue you are right, Pinto was diagnosed with a spavin in his right hock and that was the leg he came in lame with - although there was quite a lot of transferrence to the left fore too.  The joint is almost fused, and he is on a number of supplements to support his joints, but it is still early days.  This is one of the reasons why we are doing so little trot work at the moment, we are still building up.  Due to the arthrosis I think he may always be just a little NQR on that leg, but I only noticed it on the video and it is certainly much better than when the vet came.  Though I think, perhaps, lunging two days in a row wasn't quite such a good idea!

Regarding the whip, well this is certainly a work in progress! For sure he is going faster! but he is also worried and tense.  I couldn't bring the whip any further forward without blowing his mind completely.  All the time when I've acutally got the whip in my hand I've never asked him to trot, that is just his reaction.  I've been working for 6 years to stop that kind of high-headed running-away trot under saddle, and I'd prefer not to encourage it when lunging - though I can cope if it is just an intermediarly step while he gets used to having a whip following him 

[issywizz]

Im not going to even try and give advice on lungeing/body positioning over the net but have you read any of Klaus Hempflings books? he gives good guidance on body positioning and its effect on the horse in his first book " dancing with horses".
Also have you tried habituating him to the whip using positive reinforcement ? tiny steps with him loose starting with a *very* small whip and rewarding every time he comes closer to it until he is targetting it would be how I would approach the issue as that avoids any fear of flooding him with it.
He has a nice rhythm in trot, personally I would have him on a shorter line and walk with him or long lining would be even better as you really need more influence over him in the early stages of teaching him how to relax and move well.

[SueWhitmore]

Also have you tried habituating him to the whip using positive reinforcement ? tiny steps with him loose starting with a *very* small whip and rewarding every time he comes closer to it until he is targetting it

This is a really good suggestion. I always use +R rather than flooding, but I don't really have any issues with whips, mine get used to them as non threatening very early on, due to the fact they are only used when accompanied by polos! It's not always very quick, it took me a year to get our young dales pony (but only a few sessions) used to a headcollar after his bad experience using *only* +R, but now he rushes up to "come and put his face in", as I ask them, so it was well worth it.

you really need more influence over him in the early stages of teaching him how to relax and move well.

Totally agree. IW is another person who is brilliant at ground work BTW.

Sarah, you know I hesitate to give any training advice at all, but Chloe's plea was so heartfelt on the other thread, and what is more, she is obviously a word person - she has understood and put into practice what was in words, which is not always easy for everyone. It is sometimes easier for people like myself who started off totally incompetent, and really had to put effort into learning everything to achieve an average competence, to help others starting out than people who have an instinctual ability to work with horses.

[Casey76]

This is a really good suggestion. I always use +R rather than flooding, but I don't really have any issues with whips, mine get used to them as non threatening very early on, due to the fact they are only used when accompanied by polos! .

Sue, I have slowly been disensitizing Pinto to whips for 6 years, and he is now 500% better than he was.  In the beginning he couldn't even be in the same space as one if there was one propped against a wall.

He will actually target a short stick very nicely, but he is very  astute.  He knows when one is being used "with intent."  So he can be ridden in a group lesson when others are carrying whips and be OK.  He tends to get worried if you are riding with one in your hand, and he is hypersensitive to it, but is generally OK.  The problems really arise if you are on the ground with one, and I can only think that somewhere in his past he has been abused, or that he has done something wrong and he has been punished for it.

For a long time he would try and climb the walls in his box, sweating from head to toe, eyes rolling if you went into the box with a whip or a rope.

He used to get so worried if he did anything "wrong"  e.g. not long after I moved to my yard about 5 years ago, I lunged him by myself for the first time, just in a headcollar and line - no whips or anything.  After about 10 minutes I tried to move him up to canter, and after a couple of strides he whipped round wrenching the lane out of my hand.  I then couldn't catch him, I couldn't get within 20 feet of him.  I ended up calling a friend and I actually had to leave the manege and go out of sight before he would calm down enough to be caught - and he walked straight up to my friend, so it wasn't that he was scared of the trailing line.  Once he was back in his box, he still wouldn't let me anywhere near him.  Only when the box door was closed and he was "safe" did he lose some of the tension.

Sorry, I didn't mean for this to go sooo off topic, but I did just want to highlight thati think there are somethings which are going to take longer than others to put right.

At the moment I would rather Pinto be not so active on the lunge and be happier with me holding a whip (no matter where it is) than him rushing around being worried and tense.  And I'm not trying to let his Pinto-isms be an excuse either, I do want us to improve and I'm taking all you are saying on board, honest