When and why should you teach/do shoulder fore? Lesson yest needs discussion!

[drummers mum]

I think we have been here before but this is off the back of the riding club lesson/schooling session I was in yesterday, taught by a lady who is BHS trained as well as being a BD trainer, ridden at grand prix level, ex BD judge, used to 3 day event and does EFT

I have had lessons with her before and struggle with her rigid thinking, yesterday I was struggling with straight lines, losing Liv through her right shoulder constantly and was just told to ride forwards and use my core as we were both wobbling about!  

So after doing leg yield of a sorts, I asked about doing shoulder fore.......I was given a stiff no, that this was an advanced move and that if I couldn't control Livvis shoulders in a straight line then shoulder fore would make it worse....I replied that surely, shoulder fore was about controling the shoulders and that this could help but she told me that I should ride forwards (I hate that damn word, what do people think I'm trying to do ) and use flexions in straight lines and on circles so that Livvi learns not to follow her nose. (which she doesn't anyway, she follows her shoulder )

So, some thoughts on this please

[catkin]

Without actually being there to see what was happening it's nearly impossible to discuss your particular situation. Also remember that some phrases have become jargon where everyone has their own idea of what it means.

Certainly, a BHS/BD instructor that I had taught shoulder in/shoulder fore very early on in a horse's education - but it can be tricky to do correctly (rather than a mangled wriggle) unless you have the horse's attention - maybe that's what she was after particularly with the references to your core and forwards.

[ros]

My thoughts are: you don't sound very happy with her so why stick with her? 

[ukica]

Yes very difficult to say without seeing the lesson.

SI is the most important exercise to straighten the horse and SF would be like a preparation for SI.  The exercise bends the inside hind leg by putting more weight on it, therefore freeing the outside shoulder.  It should really be taught in hand first.

Ultimately, the horse should be able to work on straight lines and circles with correct bend and be straight on the circle, without falling in and out before the SI. In the BB way, this is the case and when the horse can do this, the SI starts.

It may be she feels you are not established enough in the basics to start with this yet?  Did you ask her why?  and what her plan would be for you and Livvi?(you may have more understanding then what she is after  )

In BB way, the progression is:

Circle
Circle increase and decrease
Circles throughout the arena in different sizes
Serperntines with correct bend
And then the lateral work begins.

Don't know whether that helps?

[drummers mum]

Ros, I don't, but it was a riding club thing and could have been one of 3 instructors, I got unlucky!

So what would be the difference in letting me do leg yield with too much bend then? (Which we did, horridly!) As for the forwards I am not totally sure what she wants from me  Livvi IS forwards and listening, its just that our transitions can be progressive and not instantaneous, although she is really trying.  I get chastised when we stand around for a bit or have been winding down to listen and then Liv isn't instantly alert and off when I ask.

To be precise, I only lose Liv through her right shoulder and really struggle with this, I can't keep straight (off a wall) without left flexion.  OUr right hand circles are lovely our left are a work in progress because I struggle to stop getting to much bend and lose her through her right shoulder. IF we both concentrate though, it is possible.   The instructor does not see us enough to know this and the only help I got was ride her forwards and that I should do cicrles with counter flexion.

So you wouldn't teach shoulder fore as an aid to becoming straight then?

[ukica]

I would teach her from the ground definitely.  I would lunge a lot from the cavesson where you can effect the bend and activate the inside hind leg and really control the circle....then i would do SF on the straight line.

As for ridden...without *seeing* its unclear whether you are doing something to cause the falling out (maybe not a good outside rein contact  ), so its hard to say.

But i am sure if you did the exercises in hand, it would have a knock on effect to the ridden work and you could definitely then introduce it to ridden.

These are all questions you need to ask the instructor who should explain her reasoning and give some idea of a plan.

[drummers mum]

  thanks Ukica, kind of where I was thinking about heading.

Do you know something, I adore good lessons, they give you purpose BUT why oh why don't some instructors listen to you!? Its like you have to fit into a mould!

ETA, forget me, I am still interested to hear what peeps think about shoulder fore and its place in schooling.

[Camacoona]

It is hard to say when you haven't seen the horse and rider, and their way of going.  I do however use shoulder in and shoulder fore quite early on in the horse and rider's education.  

There are however a few prerequisites to teaching it.  One of them is forwards reaction to the leg.  No I don't mean running on, what I do mean however is that when you put the leg on lightly, the horse moves forward without hesitation.  

Where this instructor wants you to ride forwards to stop Liv falling through her shoulder and to help with straightness, I would tend to use circle work and yes eventually lateral work to aid in straightness.  The Sh/F would initially be used in walk but certainly in time would be used in trot.

[issywizz]

Any lateral work done with incorrect bend is pretty useless actually and may even be damaging.
The same goes for using it at the expense of impulsion-and no that doesnt mean rushing out of balance, just that the horses backend needs to be engaged.

There is a difference between using a slight angle shoulder fore as a straightening exercise when it is very useful and breaking the horses neck off 

What do you see as the difference between the SF that you were after and the flexions that the instructor wanted? Flexions are a very important part of the tool kit IME , as is forward ( without rushing).

Otoh I am also aware of the way that some trainers idea of forward *is* rushing out of balance so Im not saying you are wrong or your trainer is right, just adding some thoughts. 

[Heather]

I would teach it from the ground before I ever even back a horse, Em. To move the forehand away from pressure from the outside rein, and to move forwards from my inside hand, which under saddle would then become my inside leg.

I would teach the giravolta work from the ground, especially to get the horse off the inside shoulder-and supple the horse behind the saddle. We are doing all of this with Babou, as she has a real thing about leaning into pressure on the left rein. If I had tried to do this under saddle, I am sure she would have got worse.

Are you turning your shoulders to the inside when turning or on a circle?

[drummers mum]

Are you turning your shoulders to the inside when turning or on a circle?

No idea Heather   I concentrate alot on not leaning in as she is very good at throwing you sideways and you not realising, I like to do no stirrup work as it helps me to sit straight.  I have done some in hand work with her and she is quite light, moves away from pressure, its just so different transferring it to ridden.

What do you see as the difference between the SF that you were after and the flexions that the instructor wanted? Flexions are a very important part of the tool kit IME , as is forward ( without rushing).

Flexions, the horse is still walking in a straight line.  I see this as a softening of the jaw asking for relaxation and and releasing the muscles in the poll and neck, I do these with Livvi at a halt and in walk but I am guilty of using the wall as a prop......shoulder fore I see as an exercise to engage the inside hind and ask the horse to work into the outside rein thus controling the shoulders.....  Its this outside rein bit that we don't have and Liv can be a wiggly worm, Its like I can control the left shoulder but not the right.

To be fair Livvi is not always very quick off your leg and thats totally my fault for not being consistant enough,but if you get her attention at the beginning of a session then she can be super .......she does have a tendancy to rush, especially when she is unsure, she panics and goes against your hand and you have to stop breathe and start again. Or she can go the other way, get cross and stuff up totally   Basicaly she is lazy but stressy