Positive Punishment & Admonishment

[SueC]

Interesting day with Heather again today.  Thanks H.   

We got to talking about whether I would use positive punishment or admonish a horse if I felt they were misbehaving.  It's extremely rare that I feel I need to, but I agreed I would.  As an example, an adult horse keen to get going, who forgets their manners when I'm picking out their feet and tries to snatch the foot away and bounce about, or kick out.  They would get a sharp tap from the back of my hand (knuckles) and a 'Oy, be-have'.  Normally that brings them to their senses and I can immediately praise and reward and not have further problems.  This is an adult, trained horse who just forgets themselves once a blue moon for a second though.  I expect horses to be as polite with me as I am with them. 

I also agreed that as it's so rare I do it, I could come over as someone who never would and who would be horrified to see someone else do it.     I would not admonish or punish a horse by waving something at their face or eyes though and I do try very hard to be careful that I'm not the one causing the unwanted behaviour by something I'm doing.  So, yes, when I see people doing that, I am a bit outspoken about it and this can lead folk to thinking I would never admonish a horse for anything.  I do have rules, boundaries and limitations though and a horse stepping out of line and putting a human in danger may find himself in trouble, if I feel it's warranted and if I feel a sharp correction will immediately defuse the situation.   

Now 99% of the time I can keep myself out of trouble regardless of what the horse is doing and can afford to ignore unwanted behaviour, but just sometimes I do think a horse might need a quick reminder of his manners.  I do feel that many people resort to punishment as a first port of call, unwarranted, repeated and unsuccessful.   I'm quite sad about that. 

Would you ever use positive punishment or admonish a horse for unwanted behaviour, or always avoid doing so?  Am I a hypocrite?

[Casey76]

I use positive punishment for unwanted behaviours.

For things like foot snatching I would admonish with voice only.  Leg waving I tend to ignore - front leg waving is usually a ploy to get treats (and it doesn't work... have you ever tried to untrain something you once trained with CT???)  Back leg waving/threats I would use voice, but knowing Pintos behaviours I would examine what exactly I was doing for him to make that threat... but for kicking out and biting I would use voice and a slap with an open hand.  But I then "love" the area with lots of soft touches and caresses.

I insist on good manners all the time, but rarely do I have to use even vocal admonishments.  Body language is usually sufficient to correct bad manners now.

I hope that makes sense, I'm tired now!

[Torsornin]

kicking biting rearing striking - are my four that for 3 seconds they are in big trouble (this doesnt always mean striking the horse either)

But I also will give my horse a light slap for being bratty when they know better for something little and forgetting manners -

that said I always listen to my horse and I feel I know when my horse is just feeling good - vrs being a brat and I feel the punishment fits the crime, as in a stern word to tone it done vrs a light slap on the shoulder

[Magsndan]

I would have a few years ago but no not anymore. Not that they ever get away with anything, I think I can be quite tough and expect very good manners.It certainly isnt been soft, I just dont find a slap effective

[Cloud_cirrus]

Well timed thread for me, last night I was hoof boot fitting for a customer and the horse tried to kick out sideways at me.  I was being perfectly polite, was only trying to measure up the foot but the horse was anxious to be back out in his paddock and told me to sod off.  This particular horse has trained it's owner to do exactly what he wants him to do and so when he meets someone who is quietly assertive he is not a happy chap.

If it had been one of my horses he would have met my elbow as he moved in to my space and heard a sharp 'stand up' type noise but unfortunately for me I consider it the owners business to train their own horse so didn't actually do anything other than make sure he couldn't get me.

I only had the foot up for a few seconds and he asked quite strongly to put it down, I put it down and then he picked it up again and threw it sideways at me.

The owner then rewarded this behaviour by giving him a mint 'to make him stand still'.  Sometime the mind boggles ..........

[Trudi]

Shades of grey for me as in these situations it's hard to know unless it happens to you. If my safety or that of another human or animal is at risk I will be very firm but in other situations it's very much a 'why' is this happening before I act, eg our pony finds it hard to keep his hinds up for long when being trimmed, our old farrier insisted he kept them up but both me and my new trimmer let him reground his foot whenever....both methods result in the foot being safely trimmed 

[Bradders]

I now use voice and nothing else - although I have used a quick tug on a lead rope in a crisis

But I have found I am different with different horses - Bobby is (as was Rolo) a very sensitive soul - I would never dream of physically punishing him - I wouldn't even shout But, TBH, I can only think of once since he arrived where I have had to do anything - he doesn't do naughty

Nemo on the other hand..........

[Bradders]

If it had been one of my horses he would have met my elbow as he moved in to my space and heard a sharp 'stand up' type noise

That was how I used to deal with Nemo when he tried to bite - it did work, to a point. But, it would depend why he was doing it - sometimes he would do it just to get a reaction - if my nerves could stand it , I was better off just ignoring him - he soon got fed up and stopped.

[von10]

our pony finds it hard to keep his hinds up for long when being trimmed

He was a star for me   .... I wish they were all 'only' that hard!!

They would get a sharp tap from the back of my hand (knuckles) and a 'Oy, be-have'.  Normally that brings them to their senses

Yes agree with Sue, if a reprimand is needed this is done with far less force then a palm slap. I have done this once only with one clients horse who was leaping forwards and cow kicking to kneecap me everytime I went to pick up a hind foot  . 2 seconds later he stood perfectly still as he knew I was not pleased. He eventually went to 'horse borstall' as a 3 year old. The owner took NH to the extreme and did nothing to stop him practically bullying her. Safety is paramount to me, but I do instantly 'make it up' and have a chill out with scratches etc.

Y.


Forgot to add, being able to drop ones voice 4 octaves and 'growl' is very useful!! Either their name or 'no' is almost always enough to halt undesired behaviour.

[Peaches]

I think it's all relative. I have no problem with positive punishments such as you guys have described, but obviously we have to be careful where to draw the line, and be aware of what might be bringing on the unwanted behaviour we are admonishing.

However, I also think we can be a little over sensitive (at times, and not necessarily without reason) about it too - afterall, it's perfectly acceptable for a senior animal in a herd to admonish a younger/'lower' horse if that younger one produces a behaviour that is unacceptable and not what is expected of it within the herd. That doesn't make the younger a miserable, unhappy or shut down pony on the whole (talking about healthy 'normal' horses here, not ones with a tricky background, or specific problems). I know we must be careful comparing herd behaviour to how we approach bad behaviour, us being essentially predator animal rather than prey....but I still think it's relevant to consider and remember.

[Casey76]

I really think it depends horse to horse also.

While I said that I use positive punishement, I think I've given Pinto a slap exactly once, about 5 years ago, and the reaction was purely instinctual.  He kicked out at me while I was in his box, so I gave him a slap on the leg he kicked out with, as well as a "don't you bl**dy well do that again"

These days, verbal admonishements "oi!" "non!" "arret!" in various tones of voice are enough for lapses in manners.  But Pinto makes life very easy, as generally he is the easiest horse to "do" in general.

With the school horses I tend to adopt a more "defensive" approach in the first place, using elbow and body blocks to prevent biting.  I did once cuff a horse on the muzzle after she bit me on the hip, and I was being perfectly polite doing her girth up teeny bit by teeny bit.  Even though the bit was purely reactionary to the though of the girth being done up, I also reacted instinctively.

And I don't mean to come across as it I whale on any horse I come into contact with, but they outweigh me more than 10x, and they could physically damage me far more than I could them.

[Lyndsey Lewis]

I think it's all relative. I have no problem with positive punishments such as you guys have described, but obviously we have to be careful where to draw the line, and be aware of what might be bringing on the unwanted behaviour we are admonishing.

However, I also think we can be a little over sensitive (at times, and not necessarily without reason) about it too - afterall, it's perfectly acceptable for a senior animal in a herd to admonish a younger/'lower' horse if that younger one produces a behaviour that is unacceptable and not what is expected of it within the herd. That doesn't make the younger a miserable, unhappy or shut down pony on the whole (talking about healthy 'normal' horses here, not ones with a tricky background, or specific problems). I know we must be careful comparing herd behaviour to how we approach bad behaviour, us being essentially predator animal rather than prey....but I still think it's relevant to consider and remember.

I agree with the above.   I'm ok with positive punishment as I think there are times when it is needed. We just have to be VERY careful evaluating the situation.

It's a great question Sue thanks! I have learned a lot about the fallout from +P from clicker training and so I'm very very careful now to use it. I found a good little article talking about +P but it's talking about using it (actually NOT using it) in a training situation when you are trying to engage and teach an animal:

http://smartdog.typepad.com/smart_dog/2010/04/a-surprising-look-at-balanced-training.html

However, it does not address the situations some of you describe above where you have an animal who is emotionally healthy and offers a dangerous undesirable behaviour like kicking or barging through that has nothing to do with training a new behaviour. These are times when I will smack.

But I think we have to be really careful about what's motivating the behaviour. If a horse kicks out when you go to pick up a foot because it's scared to have you touch it's foot, then I think +P is the worse thing we can do. If it kicks because it finds you annoying because it wants to just eat it's hay in peace or go out to pasture etc, then +P can be perfect (even then, I'm very hesitant and very careful about the type of +P). If it barges through you because it's nervous and not thinking and hasn't learned about space, then again I think +P would be the worse thing. But...if it's barging into you because it wants to get into the space you are in (because of access to hay net or whatever), then I'd smack.

A horse that has been well raised is also emotionally stable and doesn't fall apart when it gets smacked (making sure the +P fits the crime!!). The last time I slapped my mare with my hand (she barged me a bit) I don't think she even noticed!! LOL Smacking is so not on her radar. And it just hurt my hand... Which is cute and funny ONLY if the horse is basically well mannered and careful with our space. And sometimes an inexperienced horse person can't recognize the difference in body language.

I never smack Ruby because he is so emotionally fragile and falls apart and gets upset at the least little thing and also he is very very polite so I never have needed to. But it did recently and it was very interesting. He was bop bopping his nose up in the air against the cavesson while I was leading him and it p*ssed me off so I took the whip and smacked him on the chest. Not hard. Just a little bite. The look on his face was priceless. He stopped dead in his tracks and threw his head up in the air and just stared at me like he'd never seen me before!!!   I immediately regretted hitting him but after a few moments of leading him more with his now PERFECT manners I felt pleased with my decision. He needs to know that he can't toss me around like a ball or I might bite. And I also realised that he is growing up and becoming emotionally more stable and that if I'm sharp with him, he won't dissolve into a shaking heap of nerves. The hard part is making those calls as they are often just gut decisions on the spur of the moment.

I do see lots of clicker trained horses who are so cool in sooo many ways and are really trusting of their owners and so quick to want to engage etc but would think nothing of kicking out or biting or barging through them if it suited them! It's awful!! I have friends with clicker trained horses that I'm scared to go in the paddock with because of their lack of basic manners coupled with their over eager friendliness. It's a tricky balance sometimes.

[Larri DB]

Depends on the horse and the situation, but yes I will admonish a horse if required.

I would tend to up body language for something like a threatened kick - had this from Ziggy the other day, he wheeled and went to double barrel me as I approached him to catch and I roared at him and stepped right at him to make him move away - he shot off like he'd been stung, once he'd stopped I invited him back into my space for a head rub. So if I do need to punish it's instantaneous

I rarely smack, but will elbow a biter. I'll rope shake and use body language for disrespect when leading, unless it's a baby or a real fear issue when I will bring energy right down and be calm, then re-try.

I'm more vocal than anything else...another growler lol 

[lmevans]

another vocal one here! 

I will admonish a horse who steps over the line, but that does depend on which horse and which line and why he/she has stepped over it. My horses know where my lines are, I'm lucky that I've had two out of the three since birth, and they've grown up knowing what is ok and what isn't. I find I can mostly just use a short sharp noise, either 'oi' or 'ah' (short and sharp and louder than whatever I was doing before). This is their signal that they're gone too far or been rude. I'm a noisy b****r all the time really, I sing almost constantly, and talk to my horses all the time, so the noise has to be a very different tone to be effective. My horses are also all very used to being handled all over and they aren't too precious about being handled with kid gloves - Tonka likes a massage by being thumped with the back of a shovel and Noosa begs for scratching sessions with a shavings fork  so a light tap or poke is nothing to them really, but if it's combined with the short sharp noise they know the meaning behind the poke and know they've been told off! For bargy sort of behaviour when leading, I use a quick stop and back up as a correction. Combined with the change in tone (ie the command to 'back' is short and sharp), they know they've been rude and to go more easy on the pulling!

If I'm handling a strange horse, one who doesn't know my body language and tone, then I'll make everything slower and more obvious. I hope that this makes it less likely that they'll misunderstand my requests and produce unwanted behaviours in the first place. If they're just rude spoilt brats, it's a bit harder, and I find I have to make myself quite big and 'hard' in my body language (far harder than I am with mine) to get them to listen, but once they realise you mean it and they behave I can soften and they see that as a form of reward in itself.

[Bradders]

This is interesting! I suspect we all have different tolerance limits too.

I am relatively easy going, and, having been blessed with 2 such sensitive little souls, have actually been pleased when they have found the confidence to try to over step the mark a bit

(Do horses understand humour? It seems to work for me sometimes )

When I sold Rolo I was very worried that he would be told off for things that I found acceptable - the main one being "Rolo the incredible counting horse" When he was excited, he would tap the stable floor with his front hoof - he only ever did it in excitement, and if he accidently caught the stable door, would stop cos he knew that was unacceptable. But I found the tapping quite endearing - and was chuffed that my shy little chap had found a way of expressing himself. I was fully aware that not everyone would appreciate it! So I did tell new owners that he did it and that I had never discouraged him - fortunately they were not bothered about it, but I had visions of him being totally confused if told off for it.