So what is your perfect outline?

[Camacoona]

Following on from what has come up on a few different threads lately...

Behind the vertical has been in evidence... then there are those who are scared of their horses dropping behind or being labelled as 'rollkur fanatics' and have their horses verging on the hollow.

It is also evident that what some class as BTV, others think is 'on the bit'.
So when is a horse BTV?  So for me, I would always have said that a horse is BTV when the horse's nose isn't perpendicular with the ground and the poll/forehead is ahead of the tip of the nose.  And this is accompanied by a poll that is lower than the crest.  (I see this when others say its fine)

When for you, is BTV acceptable?  Would you ever use it as part of your training methods?

IF the horse's nose is on the vertical or just ahead of the vertical, when does that perfect outline become hollow?

What are your thoughts?

[SueC]

Behind the vertical is what it says on the tin.  Horse's nose is behind the vertical.  Very, very rarely a horse with an overdeveloped or large crest may have part of his crest higher than his poll with his nose on or in front of the vertical, but 99% of the time when the crest is higher than the poll the nose is also behind the vertical and that to me is not acceptable.  Nor do I want a horse to star-gaze or poke his nose.

All of these faults are more often than not a reflection of what is happening further back imo.

In the early stages of training faults in the horse's posture will probably happen inadvertently, I don't like to see it happen too often at the higher levels of training.

No I don't use over-bending as part of training.  A horse I'm training at the moment, will occasionally over-bend, it's an evasion of the hindquarter, as he's not that strong yet.  I ask him with my inside leg forward and inside fingers to bring his shoulders up, flex a little and step under, which corrects it.  If I'm really paying attention and riding properly I can prevent his needing to do it in the first place, but I do sometimes make mistakes.   

There's no such thing as the perfect outline imo, just suitable postures for the current stage of training. 

[Camacoona]

There's no such thing as the perfect outline imo, just suitable postures for the current stage of training. 

  Like that 

I think what has made me question this, is that some people, (not just on here, on FB, on other forums and while out and about judging) don't see the horses as being BTV when the nose is (often very) behind the vertical and the poll is dropped where as I'm often inwardly screaming but... its behind the vertical! 

I know often what I'm seeing is 'work in progress' but quite often what I am seeing  is the rider asking for more roundness that puts the horse btv.  I was at a lecture demo some months ago with a 'top' international dressage rider/trainer.  he explained that he abhorred BTV and would never use LDR.  He didn't show it once with the 'ordinary horses' but then came a comp rider.  He described the outline as 'low' but it was consistantly BTV despite working through sh-in half pass etc and then he said 'lets work her a bit more up' and the rider brought the outline up but poll was still lower than the crest and the nose though not as badly behind, was still nevertheless BTV.  People just seem to have a different set of criteria for what constitutes BTV and 'on the bit' these days and I'm afraid I just don't understand it when as you say

Behind the vertical is what it says on the tin.  Horse's nose is behind the vertical.

  It should be one of the easiest criteria to keep in check.

[SueC]

It's something that happens sometimes and I do think that some riders may be able to train their horses asking them to come temporarily behind the vertical, maybe whilst the rider is concentrating on something else, but it's not something I personally would aim at deliberately.  I think it's too risky and can lead to the horse thinking that's what he should be doing and having to be corrected for it.  I don't like correcting horses for something I've caused in the first place, or making it easy for horses to do the 'wrong' thing.  I don't want to risk their building hefty crests, sore backs and breaking down ligaments either and I'm certainly not skilled enough to ensure that doesn't happen.  I prefer to try to stick to the simple, no nose behind the vertical, even if I do make mistakes and can't avoid it altogether.

I also think that riders should be honest about why they put their horses into a particular posture and what their actual aim is.  They are often very dishonest about it I feel.

That's one of the things I like about EE, people are generally very honest about what they're doing, or trying to do and why they're doing it. 

[pico]

Answer in the form of a photo essay... Using as the model, one long-leggedy grey Arab of my long-standong aquaintence. He makes an intersting case study for some of my points. He has always been reactive and prone to the classic Arab "high headed and hollow".  He came to me  as a 6 1/2 year old with overall insufficient muscling and a dropped back. I built him up over the years, but that back has dropped again with age and the knock-on effects of arthritis (hocks, knee, and some stifle sorenessa times, though nothing has ever shown on xrays for stifle), a couple tendon injuries (done in the stable as far as anyone could tell!), etc... He's an older fellow (20 this year).

As it's past my bedtime, I'm just going to illustrate using pictures I've actually uploaded already for now. These are all just moments in time, and some of them were uploaded more based on artistic merits (interesting lighting, etc. ) than just on being the best illustration of sime point about horses. (Oh, and it's bl**dy hard to keep a horse working well on long lines/ lunge *and* take decent photos of the best moments!  ) Also I am now going to pick holes in and point out the *worst* bits of my poor old horsie's appearance,  as well as mentioning some good things. I am doing this because he makes a very good teaching example!

BTV:  For me, I so far have never seen any reason to intentionally ask a horse to go BTV. However, I will sometimes allow the horse to drop behind the vertical briefly in certain circumstances without immediately correcting him/her. Mostly, this would be when a the horse is stretching, but instead of going FDO (forward down out) ends up stretching more round and slightly BTV, so a slight bit of LDR (Low Deep Round). This tends to happen when the horse is not fully strong enough yet - but as a phase of development, I think it's OK to work through it, letting it correct itself over time as the horse strengthens rather than avoiding entirely whatever physical demand is resulting in the horse ending up this slight overbent. For the case with stretching, this is especially true with a horse like Pico who tends to want to go high headed and tight across the back a lot. (I also don't fuss at him too much if sometimes when stretching FDO he goes too 'down' and ends up a bit on the forehand for a few strides - I do try to get him off the forehand again, of course, but sometimes the relaxation of stretching happily down takes precidence. Likewise with the slightly too round: if they do that rather than fall on the forehand, and are not actually sucking back 'behind the bit' in an evasion, I'll just work them through it.)
 Pico, in the snow, in November last year - so knee recently injected for arthritis for the first time, and just recently finally back in something approaching full work after his tendon injury that year. Looking at the tension in the reins, I'd say I was actually trying to get him to come up a bit and not fall on the forehand here -whilst also getting a photo! Still, a reasonable facsimile of illustrating the sort of thing I'm talking about.

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As a contrast, Pico later in the same set. I think I'd call this a reasonable working frame of the sort I'd be happy with for hacking out. But ideally I'd like to see him more released across the topline of the neck (see the little dent just in front of the withers? I want that  filled out and the curve of the neck smoothly rounded). Also, to be 'on the bit' if working on dressage / school work I would expect (wit this horse) that his nose would be closer to the vertical. You can see here too that he needed more work (and more relaxation of the long back muscles) to get his back muscled fully developed and working. But see next photo (earlier in the same workout) for an instersting contrast there...

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As mentioned above, this next photo, taken earlier in the session (and before the stretching down that resulted in the BTV shot is an intersting contrast. The head and neck postion are quite similar to above. Not bad, but maybe a bit high for the relaxed frame. You can really see the tightness in the long muscles of the back, esp. across the loin, in this one though. I would say from experience with Pico that is wasn't just a difference in angle of light, though that may be accentuating it. The amount of change in the release across his back muscles from before and after a proper workout is very visible.

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finally, a nice shot of him working on the lunge, stretching forward and out, and ever so slightly down. This last one is a couple weeks later, in mid-December. To me, his neck is nicely draped and relaxed and he's carrying himself nicely. Once again, not 'on the bit', but a nice long frame- I could imagine him going for miles like this (he'd have made a lovely endurance horse if that had been my thing - he also made a lovely dressage horse though    ) (and yes, his topline across the back and loin is still not ideal, but it had improved some more)

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[pico]

And a ridden one (I hope the rider does not mind me reposting them - it's not me on him in these - it makes a very good illustration of certain points. Especially since it is back-lit so show the outline of his head and neck very well!

Hollow due to spooking at something in the scary corner    The head and poll are in a nice position as far as where the nose is and the poll being highest. I thinnk before the spook this was true as well - but due to the spook, he's become 'short' through the neck by bringing his head up too high, bending upwards and backwards right in front of the withers, instead of  the neck arching nicely forward from withers onwards. He has an excuse for why he looks this way at this moment. We've all seen horses working in collection which are too short through the  neck showing a similar flaw though where the rider doesn't have the excuse that the horse  is spooking slightly at the moment. Or at least, I have...
(It is now very past my bedtime - I will comment on what I personally do to correct this with this horse *later*. I leave these pics for others to use as examples while commenting the subject at hand though!)

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(Edited to correct sleepy typos, and 'cos I decided to only post one photo before sending myself to bed last night  )

p.s. I also just noticed that though he's clearly spooking a bit, he's also still listening to his rider with one ear tipped towards her

[Casey76]

Omar, now that is a question and a half!

I really think it depends horse to horse.

For Pinto, who used to hollow so badly all the time, anywhere approaching the vertical is good for me.  If, during the course of a schooling session he went too deep and came btv, then I would probably ignore it if it was only momentary, but if it became persistent then I wuld halve to look at other things... is he tired, does his saddle fit properly etc, because I know it is not like him to do that.  And when he does he becomes REALLY heavy in hand.

So discounting the rider completely  I would be very happy if we could work consistenly in a frame like these phots below... not completely on the vertical, but allowing for the thickness of the throatlatch I'm happy enough

[issywizz]

Great thread , I agree with everybody  

Great pic demo too Pico  

I think for me there are two issues about BTV, first and foremost is that often force or at best discomfort has been used to put the horse there.
Secondly and connected to that is the aspect of forced submission which I can understand may be neccessary as an emergency technique.
BTV is evasion of coming to the contact so it is most definitely an issue for me,how much of an issue depends on why the horse is evading the contact.
That could be because the contact has been forced, or it could be because the horse has been pushed too fast and/or out of balance and isnt strong enough for what is being asked.
The latter, as Pico demonstrates is something that may occur for brief moments as an acceptable part of the progressive schooling journey but is something to use as a measure along with everything else of when to back off a little.

I love that last lungeing pic BTW Pico, beautiful.
Nice pics from Casey too.

[issywizz]

Heres an example of what I mean by too much impulsion causing BTV.
We were behind our music and I pushed B on down the centre line and he went into a big medium trot which he simply wasnt capable of producing whilst still working over his back, it happens a little in the medium across the diagonal too.
You can see how he comes BTV and goes into DAP because its more than his body is ready to produce.

http://www.rsa-photo.co.uk/LusoBreedShow2010/2010LBSUK/Freestyle/index.html

Sorry, link isnt direct, its page 10 and 11.

What bothers me the most is that apparently it was one of the most overbent ones that was chosen for the mag pic  because that seems to be what people find 'pretty' 

[issywizz]

Hi Emma  

I agree that the horse should follow the rein  
I also agree that Caseys horse still shows a slight tension in the neck but she has come a long way from where she started with him.  

What I dont understand is why you feel that the horse needs to come BTV to release the neck? I use a lot of soft lateral flexions with B as he does have a tendency to get tight in the neck, especially at the withers-you can see this in some of the pics I posted.
But I dont have to bring him BTV to get that release in the neck and back  
I understand that you work BTV to get Z to relax and listen but I cant understand what physical benefit it has over and above a 'correct' reach over the topline to the bit ?

Good on you for uploading vid  

[issywizz]

Sorry, I cross posted too 

So are you saying that basically its an over correction to counterract the hollowing?

[Trudi]

  great thread 

I think the head is generally most folks point of focus  the 'get him round' message rings loudly around many schools still with hardly a thought for the why or how!

I like IW's thoughts and the thoughts of Sue that Omar commented on in particular I liked from a great post, it is hard to judge when training is so fluid and perfect may not exist even ever!! That said though I'm quite anti just usung the btv argument as a stand alone and what some folks seem to miss is why it may be happening. Pico's super pics show how the neck/head are very much a mirror of what is/isn't going on behind. From personal experience I know that when Moralejo goes btv I can feel it instantly and generally at the same time I feel his hinds (or more normally one particularly) say 'hey this is such hard work I'm out of here' and so the btv is an instant way of 'flipping out' behind, this is similar to the first lunge pic of Pico.

I think Omar I would be 100% agreeing with you when you see BTV and not wishing to drag this into any more off piste discussions it's perhaps why IW and often others like me get frustrated when it goes unmentioned on here 

So here is someone way more advanced than me but showing to my eye what I was saying about them avoiding behind and coming BTV as a result.



and here just a gratuitous BTV pick and I think it's probably quite obvious why this is BTV 



and then me doing it perfectly  joke.....but seriously this isn't BTV buuut he's just about to be and you can 'sense' where it's going next.......





a second later and it's quite obviously BTV and I had the choice to lift him and ask more behind or accept that he was generally tiring and let him stretch.





You can critique me all you like but even though they are my pics of the others don't do a hatchet job.

ps Katrina Moo was very like Pinto, I feel your pain 



eta blimey just seen there's loads of responses, I'll hit post and go read sorry if this doesn't quite fit now

[Trudi]

  look forward to the vid Emma, your Z is  and always one I love to watch

Here's Moo relaxing the neck, not deep and as you see not even too low because if he gets that far down it's just pointless when they're built like a cube 

It's very definitely a work in progress as always    polite critique is fine but it's just my way of keeping the neck relaxed and when he goes to 'drop', as you will see a number of times, I raise the hand and use my leg to lift him from behind....not saying Emma's wrong and I'm right just different thoughts perhaps. I just don't get the trainer taking them behind on purpose 

snippetsforsarah

[Camacoona]

Thanks everyone! Great discussion going on!

Those competition pics aren't great.

Heres an example of what I mean by too much impulsion causing BTV

Its great that you mention that Sarah, I forgot about the generals thought on the matter.  General Decarpentry writes really well about the fact that when the rider forces a great extension into the hindleg (by going forwards forwards forwards) where the hindleg is forced too far under the horse's body with any flexion of the joints forced out, then the horse will go BTV because the horse's hidleg joint system is not in any place to 'carry as well as push'.  Because there is no flexion in the joints of the hindleg, the weight is thrust a little more over the shoulders and the outline curls to compensate.  Ahh he explains it better than I do.  I'll have to go and find my book!

I have seen it used also Emma to 'soften' the muscles on the underside of the neck.  I think it could work as long as the horse is then given room to extend the neck out again ASAP afterwards.  People tend to focus on the underside of the neck and think that when the horse is 'nice and round' (or in my book BTV) the muscles are loose when in feact they are in a shortened state. (as opposed to lenghtened when hollow) but actually when a muscle is relaxed it is neither short nor long.  When in a shortened state, the Brachs can't do their job properlyand you end up with the horse snapping legs up as a result of tendon power rather than using fluid muscle power to loft the foreleg. Emma it sounds like you have realised this anyway as it sounds like you are looking for the roundness and then stretching it out from there

I am constantly working on getting the nose out at the same time

 

[issywizz]

Yes Trudi! bang on IMO! you feel that instant loss of connection as the hindlegs flip out! which also means that the back ( which seems to be a common reason given for the work) actually drops at the back of the saddle as the pelvis tilts the opposite way to which you want.
You can see that quite clearly in Bambus pics I think.

Brilliant explanation Omar! thank you!