Is Clicker Training Suitable For My Boy...?

[Chunky_Monkey]

Hello all....I have a HUGE 10 year old HW coloured cob, who, at some point in his life, has learned that his size means he gets his own way!  I have had him for three years, and, using various IH methods (pressure and release), he has been transformed in that time from a bargy, agressive, stubborn pig to a respectful, loving and (normally) well mannered angel!  

However, we do still have a couple of handling issues which we can't seem to crack - one of them is kicking the stable door, which drives me INSANE!  He lives out 24/7 all year round, so this isn't a massive problem, but he does come in every day for a short period of time, for a feed and a groom.  He mainly kicks the door for food, but sometimes he kicks it to tell me he's had enough of being cooped-up and wants to go back out!

I've tried some of the normal techniques to cure this......for example, rewarding him by only giving him his feed when he's stood quietly; completely ignoring him when he's kicking the door (and asking everyone else on the yard to ignore him!); putting up a stall guard so he has no door to kick (he just hooks his leg round and kicks the door frame with the back of his hoof instead...oh, and he's also found out how to limbo under the stall guard!), but nothing has worked so far.    

I have considered clicker training in the past, but as he is such a greedy food-orientated horse, i had my doubts about using this method of training.  He is also prone to nipping fingers and hands (looking for food, not aggresive), even though i rarely give him treats by hand - i tend to put any treats in his bucket or on the floor.

He also has issues when he is under saddle.....he is very sharp and unpredictable to hack, so much so that i have never been brave enough to hack him alone (he's hacked 'alone' with someone on the ground, so almost alone, but it was not an enjoyable experience for me or for the horse!).  He can be very nervous and spooky, even when out with other horses.  He's pretty hot-headed for a 'ploddy cob'!   :P

He can be quite a 'switched off' kind of horse, sometimes ungenerous and sullen in his nature, but i know that he's had a dubious past (including having 4 owners in one 6 month period, one of whom was a dealer), so i do bear this in mind and make allowances for him.  We have been having fabulous classical dressage lessons for a while now, and the lessons seem to have really given him a new lease of life, so much that he seems to now really enjoy his work, but the 'Victor Meldrew' in him still occasionally rears it's ugly head!

Would CT be a useful tool for helping with all these issues, and would it be suitable for such a greedy monster of a horse?  I know that i should expect to go through a phase of him 'mugging' me, and that he would eventually learn that he only got a treat when he heard the click/had done something correctly.

I also feel that CT might help to bring him out of his shell and improve his temperament, possibly giving him a new interest in life.  I think that positive reinforcement may well be the key to unlocking him....what do you think?

Tracey  x

[sophie&otto]

i would be interessted to hear ur replies as i also have a very large HW cob that has learnt how big he is in the past.  unlike urs he isnt spooky but is very forward going for a 'ploddy cob' and can sumtimes be a handful to ride ie not stopping wen asked and being grumpy wen asked to do things he duznt like! he used to bolt and tank and be generally horride to ride but this is now not a problem!
wen doing ground work he will play for a while(20 mins or so) but soon will decide he duznt want to anymore and either barge into u or run away(and there is no holding him if he decides to)
he too is very food orintated but i try not to use this much as he has in the past bin taught to be 'food dependant' he wudnt come near u wen we got him unless u had food, hadnt ever been lead just followed polos(he was an 8yr old 16hh cob!) if he behaved he expected food and was nasty wen he didnt get it!!!  he is now a lovly soppy boy but still has some issues (only little ones).  he also door kicks and isnt happy in a stable (stable walks and will rear and get stressed if in alone).  leading can sumtimes be an issue if he thinks ur not paying attention he will try to tank off as u take him to the field (wen we got him he did this more or less every day) this rarly happens now but he will still at times... he is generally led in a rope halter which helps a lot!
i try to use some of the concepts of natural horsemanship that i feel will be useful as well as some more traditonal methods and mix and match what i feel is needed but dont follow any set training method! (sorry if this shudnt b dun but it's worked so far!)

i dont no much about clicker trainer any links or info would be greatly appriciated!!!

sorry for joining ur tread!!!!

[minky]

I dont know enough about clicker training to give advice for anything in particular as ive just started trying it recently .
But my boy is pretty greedy and food orientated so when I first tried CT i put his stall chain across his door and stood on the other side, this stopped him from mobbing me as I could move back if he tried!
 He's pretty clever and has soon sussed he doesnt get the treats without 'earning' ?them!

 Nicola
 

[hinny_heart]

i try to use some of the concepts of natural horsemanship that i feel will be useful as well as some more traditonal methods and mix and match what i feel is needed but dont follow any set training method! (sorry if this shudnt b dun but it's worked so far!)

I don't think - and I'm sure most people here would agree - that there is any "should" about using a set training method. I think it just locks you into an inflexible and possibly boring routine - and it gives neither you nor your horse the independence to change directions and try new things which may well be more successful and interesting than ploughing on in the same old unsuccessful way.

You go for your mix-and-match - especially as it seems to be working!

[Chunky_Monkey]

Yes, i agree with the whole 'mix and match' train of thought....there are some training methods i wouldn't touch with a bargepole, but you know what would and wouldn't work with your own horse, don't you.  

I tend to find some IH methods a bit wishy-washy and potentially confusing for the horse, so I have never used those, and I don't like the 'circus tricks' aspects of Parelli, but i have used some of the 7 Parelli games to great effect.  It's all about what suits you and your horse, isn't it.

To Sophie - your cob looks lovely in your avatar pic!  Just my type, I like them with a bit of substance!  My boy is now a darling to lead, occasionally he plants his feet if he's unsure of anything, but 99.9% of the time he's perfect and very respectful to lead and handle.....a vast improvement on the 'I'm bigger than you therefore I can go where i want and do what i want' mentality that he first had!

I think you've 'hit the nail on the head' with your comment about playing...I think I'm looking for something to interest him, to make learning fun...he just doesn't 'play'!  The only time he's ever really 'played' is when I've free-schooled him in our 60x40m arena - for the first 5 minutes he just gallops around, bucks and squeals and really seems to have a joy for life.  It's wonderful to see him really act like a baby!  He blows off steam then he really settles down and works well.

I'd love to do more free-schooling with him, but the arena normally has a course of showjumps set up in two-thirds of it, with the other third set aside for flat work.  It takes about an hour to clear jumps, so that's out of the question most days!

From what I've read, I think CT may be the way to encourage him to learn through play.

To minky, it's good to hear that your horse has quickly learned that no click means no reward....I was a bit worried about being mugged every time i got within 10 feet of Archie (my horse).  

Does anyone else have experience of CT with 'belly-on'legs' horses?  

[sophie&otto]

lol i hadnt even realised i had made a comment on playing!!!!  but i spose that i did mean it!  i like to enjoy the work i do with otto and think he shud too!!!

and i am glad that im 'allowed' to mix and match!!!!!  like u sed i also find sum IH tecniques too flimsey for otto if u tried to use sum of them he'ld laugh and stamp on me!!!!  also have used the 7 games with otto!

hee hee hee yup otto's a big boy bless him!  ive never dared free schooling as such in the school as ours has a not tooo sturdy fence and otto has a 'problem' with fences and runs through them wen excited!!! but we do lots of 'playing' in the field running and chasing each other (yes he is a big kid too!)  

and i love the name archie!!! ive got a little dalesx yearling called archie! (well sir archibald wen naughty!) coz i thought it was a fab name!
bit smaller than urs tho!!!!

[sophie&otto]

ps. how big is ur boy???

[lmevans]

Hello fellow heavy cob lovers!!!

I've got one too - also knows how big he is, and due to get bigger, he's only two!  

I've recently started thinking about CT too. Tonka isn't bargy as such, he's just big and clumsy and a bit unaware when he gets distracted by something (and being entire and just rising three, there's a lot to distract him right now!). I do various ground work techniques with him - no particular brand, just a hybridisation of things that make sense to me and seem to work for us. He likes to play and sees me as his favourite playmate - this is fine until I want to do something sensible, like walk out on the road or at a show, and he wants to 'play'  then I get 600kg of frolicking idiot on a lead! I'm wondering if CT might give him an outlet for his intelligence and energy without it becoming confrontational. helping him focus on what I want to do and rewarding his cooperation rather than having to correct him all the time for excessive bounce!

I bred T, so he's not been allowed to misbehave ever, he's just a big boisterous teenager who is starting to feel his hormones, temperamentally he's a gem - think more labrador than horse - and bright too. Oh, and very food orientated!

Lucie xx

[Chunky_Monkey]

Hi Sophie...my Archie is only 15hh, but he's built like a tank!  I'll post a pic of me riding him...I'm 5'3" and i look like a pea on a drum!  (Please ignore the shocking riding, the pic was taken a long time ago, and I've improved a lot!)



To Imevans....wow, wow, wow!  Tonka is gorgeous!  And what a brilliant name too!  Don't you just love chunky monkeys?

 

[lmevans]

He was VERY nearly called chunky munky, but somehow Tonka just sort of named himself and it stuck. His passport/ registered name is Firienwood Juggernaut!

There is a Gypsy Cob society you know, good idea but seems to be run by an overworked stressed out lady who is a bit snowed under - it took seven months to get passports, and she never replied at all to some people I know of!

They go for crazy money to the US, romany is the latest trendy heritage to buy into apparently!!!

Lucie xx

[Chunky_Monkey]

To Imevans.....where d'you think my 'screen name' of Chunky_Monkey came from?  LOL!  

I think I'd feel a fraud registering with a Gypsy Cob society........Archie's normally trimmed and hogged!  I think they frown on that kind of turnout in gypsy circles!  I would love him to be a true hairy, but he has mallenders which is far easier to treat with clipped legs, and his mane is double, absolutely huge, thick and wiry when it grows out.  I am wavering at the moment...his feathers are growing back at the moment, to protect his legs over winter, and I'm tempted to leave them on and grow his mane back....I'm undecided....!

The picture isn't the best...he's proper woolly (taken in Jan 05), his hog is at that 'mohican' stage, and his pulled tail is growing out, giving a lovely 'toilet brush' look!  

Tracey  x

 

[CatherineB]

Hi Tracey (and all)

CT is a fantastic tool which can have many uses, one of which is dealing with problem behaviours. I wouldn't recommend you *learn* how to use CT by working with a problem behaviour but it is certainly something you could consider when you have more experience.

But really, the only way to genuinely deal with a problem behaviour is to remove the cause of that behaviour. CT may play a part on this or it might not.

To look specifically at the issues you mention:

Kicking the door - so would you say he kicks the door in order to obtain food, attention and/or turn-out? The trouble with this is that CT could provide him with the attention that he wants and become another reason for him to kick the door. It might work or it might make things worse. In order to guarantee success you would need to perfect your timing and also read up on extinction bursts and variable schedules of reinforcement (see Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog and Burch+Bailey's How Dogs Learn). Ignoring kicking would work eventually but it would get worse before it gets better - this is what is known as an extinction burst. The trouble with horses who have been reinforced too much for this sort of behaviour is that it takes a *long* time to get to beyond that extinction burst. Regardless of whether you use CT to help reinforce "not kicking for increasingly longer periods of time", he needs to learn that kicking doesn't work. In which case you may need to allow him to kick long enough for him to realise that it doesn't work. If you try this and then give up part way and turn him out, then you have just reinforced "kicking for even longer" so that is what you will get. It's not an easy behaviour to change and so it rather depends on how well-prepared you are for the training.

The greediness and mugging is actually something that could be overcome quite easily with very basic CT. He would learn that touching the target earns him a treat but mugging the pockets doesn't. Again, he would need to work through an extinction burst in order to learn that mugging doesn't work. You should do the first sessions over a stable door. As he gets the hang of it you will also need to wear a thick padded coat and do it without the barrier. If you don't allow him to mug and mug and mug you until he realises it doesn't work then he won't truly learn not to bother doing it.

The personality stuff, ie spookiness and "switched-off"ness are hard to discuss without seeing him. CT at its best can really bring out the personality of a horse (too much so for some people so think carefully before you decide whether to go down this route). But it can also be very hard for some less-bold horses to make the sort of decisions that CT requires, particularly if they've been punished a lot for having any sort of opinion in the past. If he is nervous then just bringing a clicker and treats out on hacks isn't going to change how he is feeling, you are more likely to devalue the treats. But CT is certainly fantastic for increasing the confidence of a horse. Once you have done some simple targetting you could move on to obstacles in the school. Make sure you move in very gradual stages, eg a walking over a tarpaulin folded into a very narrow strip. Gradually (maybe over a few sessions) the tarpaulin can be unfolded. This is actually something I think all horses should do. Ct isn't necessary, just lots of scratches and praise. Do lots of different obstacles (not all at once!) and allow him to see lots of novel objects - this is a great way of improving confidence and makes life much easier when it comes to loading.....

But you also need to think about you. If you are nervous about your horse being sharp and unpredictable out hacking then you need to improve your confidence so that you are able to give him the support that he needs. Maybe ride out on other horses so that you can get more used to it. Start with short hacks and build up gradually. Lead him out, teach him to long line so that you can do "hacks" from the ground. Shaping (see Karen Pryor's book) is the key to improving confidence for both of you. The more you can improve your awareness and understanding of behaviour, the more you will find him predictable and understand why he does what he does.

I see positive reinforcement (sometimes CT not not necessarily) as the key to most things, particularly unlocking personlity but it is not easy. It is a long and fascinating road along which you never stop learning. But there is also a lot of hard work that needs to be put in.

Please feel free to get back to me if you want any more info.

Catherine

Sophie - again, it's hard to say anything about your horse without seeing him. But use the information he is telling you. If 20 minutes is too much for him then maybe only do ground work for 15 minutes so that you can set yourself up for success and end on a good note. Gradually you will be able to extend the length of time. If you keep pushing things further so that he just barges off, then you are reinforcing his barging behaviour. I generally find horses very willing when they understand what is wanted of them and when they benefit from it in some way. So if he's not doing what you want then there is a pretty good chance he is a bit confused. Make sure you are very consistent. Don't just assume he understands your cues, it's amazing how often horses don't!

You also need to consider you - are you the sort of person who is inspiring confidence in your horse? What is it about your sessions that he wants to get away from? I have no idea, I've not seen you but you need to think about *why* he doesn't do what you want.

Catherine
 

[Chunky_Monkey]

Hi Catherine....thanks for the brilliant advice and information.  I admit i am a complete novice when it comes to CT, and i really just wanted to get some feedback before i made a decision on whether to proceed or not.  

You have given me plenty of food for thought here, so i will have a good think before i go any further.  

Thanks again

Tracey  x

[sophie&otto]

hiya!!  

thanx for the advise!!!  i took otto into the school to do some ground work with him for half an hour yesterday he was a star!!!  i havent tried any with him for a while as i got fed up with the behaviour i mentioned above(yes, probbably spured on by the fact that he new i was expecting it!!!)  so i went into the school with a positive attitude and he was fab!!!!  we did lots of going round obsticles and over scary things ect.

otto is a big boy with a lot of charactor and hes very very clever!  the lady that had him before us addmits that this used to scare her, so he had been allowed to do as he liked and this is proving to take a long time to get over. (but we have made a lot of progress).  i was looking at CT more as a method to keep hikm thinking and playing as he quickly gets bored!

i think that the running off thing came from before i got him!  he hadnt been lead anywhere with a head collar and lead rope, just followed treats so would run off all the time even if u were just leading him to the field(as i stopped the treat thing as soon as he came as i dont like it much!!!).  so wen we first tried to do any ground work with him he was horrid!!!  (and i think this probably put me in a negative frame of mind for future attempts!)  running off is now no longer much of a problem infact i often fetch him from the field with out a rope he just follows me!

you asked what sort of person i am:  im am a nervous ridder, otto has really helped me with this as he is a dream to ride and looks after me really re3ally well!  am confident on the ground as i have done a lot more handeling horses than ridding them!  the way that u asked if i am 'inspiring confidence in my horse'  really made me think,  to be fair on some occasions i think this is the problem i almost expect him to get bored befor he duz!

thanx agen for the advise i wil work on being more positive and taking things at ottos pace more!!!

i really dont no much about CT tho and dont no any body that uses it is there any way i can find out more???

thanx a lot!!!

[Johanna]

He also has issues when he is under saddle.....he is very sharp and unpredictable to hack, so much so that i have never been brave enough to hack him alone (he's hacked 'alone' with someone on the ground, so almost alone, but it was not an enjoyable experience for me or for the horse!).  He can be very nervous and spooky, even when out with other horses.  He's pretty hot-headed for a 'ploddy cob'!   :P

Just an idea... you probably have looked into this already, but... what are you feeding to your horse? I'm not suggesting that feeding is the cause of the problem, it most probably isn't in this case, but it could contribute to it. I'm an equine nutritionist and have managed to help some of my clients with over-excitable horses by changing the diet. In most cases, a diet with minimum starch and sugar helps to calm the horse enough to make training possible. With too much "fizz" the horse may find it hard to concentrate on training, whatever the method.

Johanna