Liberty training - approaches and books etc.??

[Naiad]

After watching some of the spectacular liberty training in Cavalia, I've decided that this is something I want to explore more with my retired horse Skeeter. Just because it looks fun, and it will be great for his mind too. I am just a bit confused about various "approaches" and "methods" used for such work. For liberty training, can one use any chosen approach (clicker etc.) and the difference is just that the training involves things done at liberty (so with no tack or gadgets)?

Skeeter and I have done basic clicker training and he has a super quick intelligent mind (a few various tricks etc.). Most recently, Skeeter and I do "power walking" every time I see him, to keep him moving despite his permanent stifle injury. I've started doing this power walking with nothing (no long reins, no lunge line) and he is really good at following commands as to where to move, to halt, to take a few steps of trot (injury precludes too much trot work - although he does trot in turnout). Skeeter really likes being with me and close to me, and so this work is just so delightful for both of us.  

I guess that I want to try pushing some of these basics that Skeeter and I have established to a new level and I am not quite sure what this would involve? Other than clicker, are there other good groundwork approaches/books for liberty groundwork training that anyone can recommend? If I were to use clicker at the primary method, my clicker book is very basic - is there a good clicker book that discusses advanced clicker training?

Any comments or suggestions are most welcome!!

[Magsndan]

No help but looking forward to the responses, id be interested in learning more on this.

[Naiad]

Is this what IW is working on these days with her horse?

I was sure that there were a number of people doing this on here, but I must have been mistaken.

[shoveltrash]

i have been inspired by Klaus F Hempfling.......but am mostly taught by a local NH teacher who worked for years with feral & abused/rescue horses.  didn't parisdiamond mention Mark Rashid in her Charisma thread?  i've heard some very good things about him!

[Trudi]

I have to admit Naiad that I saw your title and avoided the thread there are so many seemingly strong opinions on this that I think a lot of the knowledgeable ones won't post much, hopefully this thread may draw them out 

I'm not very good with books because it can get so confusing with so many opinions    I know others (clickers that is) have read Alex Kurland and Ben Hart's books and we have students of both on here, if they can post without it becoming WW III 

Personally I'd say it's not rocket science, especially if you already have the basics, perhaps it would be good to read some stuff on learning theory and then create your own method. This is a link that IW gave me, just be careful because it can swallow you up  luckily it spat me out and I'm using it but not beating myself up about things too much,  http://www.equineclickertraining.com/training/four_quadrants.htm

I have to say that when I watch  liberty on youtube it often leaves me cold.

Have fun and let us know how it goes. Oh and KFH has lovely books and some new rather weird youtube clips 

[issywizz]

No idea what Trudi is on about 

What leaves me cold about a lot of the so called liberty work on youtube is that is been trained using excessive pressure.
In a nutshell you can either motivate a horse through reward or pressure/pain.

When you work at liberty you need higher motivation from the horse because there is less guidance and he has more freedom to do what he likes.

So you can either reward a lot and break down small enough not to overface him with each request ie: make it easy for him to 'get it right' and build up slowly.

Or you can do what many of the so called liberty trainers do and use high pressure/pain to motivate the horse enough to keep him complying when the tack is off.

Its pretty simple really 

But I absolutely LOATHE to see work thats clearly been trained the high pressure way because to me its a lie and its the horses that suffer (IMO).

The downside to the reward based stuff is that it CAN get rather stilted because it lacks flow as you pause to reward, thats why I personally like Ben Harts method as it helps it flow better  ( in my experience which isnt exactly vast  )

Would reccomend Klaus Hempflings first book, and also Bens Harts but you will be disappointed if you want a step by step instruction manual. 

[intouch]

From Leading to Liberty, Jutta Wiemers - 100 Training Games Your Horse Will Want to Play

[hilary]

Sounds like you are going to have fun with Skeeter!

I'm another who uses c/t  -  and the good thing is you can look at lots of different "approaches" and then see how you can chunk them down, and use the clicker. Freeshaping is an excellent way to start ( as IW will testify ).
I have been playing with a mattress ( put an equimat on top and you have a really boingy surface -  fab for their balance and core stability). Freeshaping ( ie clicking whilst at liberty for tiny approaches etc etc) is great -   and gets them to really love what you are playing with. - And while I am writing this I have just thought how to break this down - Lottie my hipo found the mattress really easy. CAllisto is very tentative -  she puts a foot down but then scares herself ,  not when she is pressing her foot down, but when her foot comes up with the boinginess and leaps off. SO am going to go and find a pillow that can go horse training!!



I do want to see Bea Borelles trick training dvds -  she uses treats ( but not clicker ) _ she is Phllippe Karls partner - I read in an interview with her that when he was away teaching the good thing was she didnt have to put her toys away in an arena!
Imagineahorse may also give you inspiration on what to do  -  but then you can decide on how to do  - I know some do not like his approach ( but all his horses love liquorice,  and he sets up the environment very carefully so they can be successful)

Alexs latest dvd shows how you can loop behaviours together, and discusses hierarchies of reinforcement -  how one fun activity can reinforce the next etc. Havent watched it all though , ( it is nearly 7 hours long) and am just listening to how Bob Baily ran his chicken camps .

C/T doesnt have to be done at liberty -  but I think it is a really good starting place. Horses often try and please so I think it shows ones timing up much more, as one gets what one teaches ( they used chickens to teach the mechanical skills as you get exactly what you train with a chicken!!). And your horse has an option to walk away.

With the freeshaping and c/t it is often best to start with something ( though sounds like you are already doing this) completely outside his "behaviours " already. eg Teddy targeting being a great example.  There are then no negative connotations attached already. and trick training , blowing horns, choosing colours etc also fall into this category. If Skeeter loves to do one of these, then you can powerwalk in between , and then he gets to go do his favourite activity as a reward for his powerwalk or suchlike.

Enjoy!

Hilary ( I have a United Nations beret ( the blue one)  from a previous tour  -  is currently sitting on my head )