In hand work and collection - how long?

[Wendy]

How long should a horse be in training before introducing the paiffe in hand? Do you think that we should establish the shoulder in and collection before asking for the piaffe? And at what age.

[Della]

Wendy - where are all these ENORMOUS questions coming from?

I will be brave, because I've already had a few beers today, and offer my opinion ....

'How long should a horse be in training... ' - It depends - on conformation, mental approach to the work, natural talent, and ability. Better introduce it too late rather than too early, less harm done.

'Should we establish SI and collection before asking for piaffe' - Yes, without collection there is only piffling.

'And at what age...' - immaterial. Depends partly on anwers to the first question.

I am sure that many others will now illuminate all the gaps I have left in this reply. I however won't notice because I'll be somewhere near the beer storage facility 

[Trudi]

What Della said  (do I get a beer now  )

Interesting question Wendy and I was only beating my head against a firm place yesterday reading how the piaffe was helpful to introduce collection  I commented and had my post taken down  hey ho, more broken horses then.

[Camacoona]

For me: Piaffe is the culmination of collection, that is if you don't want to go as far as lavade etc. 

In my opinion, you can't get a good engagement of the hindleg without actually working the hindleg in any kind of gymnastic way.  I would say that the progression that I follow in hand is to start with the girravolta, shoulder-in, renvers (I only rarely use travers in-hand) and half pass.  I also school the rein-back and balancé type movements (repeated transitions from reinback to collected walk [even counted walk] and reinback to a shortened collected trot) before I school the piaffe in in itself. Generally the horse will give half steps from this type of schooling quite naturally if time and patience is practised.

 I do think the influence of the paiffe can help collection BUT collection must be in evidence first using the above techniques (among others). 

Hope that makes sense.

[Heather]

Marley has a very considerable aptitude for collection and piaffe- heck when he shot off and bucked with you at Sarah's, the piaffe he did before he bogged off, was worthy of a better mark than most current GP horses Wendy! Some horses just have an aptitude for it and offer it early in training. Go to Luis Valencas and you will see this with many young Lusitanos. It is simply in their blood. But Marley when I asked him for it in hand found it very easy. But you have to know what you are doing with the timing etc.

But I actually disagree with Omar!! :laugh:In Portugal the piaffe is used absolutely as an exercise to develop collection, rather than much later, as the result of it. The counted walk often turns into piaffe half steps, which the horse then offers full piaffe- we had this with Dorothy Marks Anglo Arab a few weeks ago, 11 yr old, never done any serious collected work before, although now as a student of PK I am sure he will!

Of course the giravolta work and other lateral exercises are also used, and these help the horse engage too. But the reinback and counted walk, which often lead to voluntary piaffe steps, for me are invaluable to get that engagement of the haunches, rather than the hindleg, that is the main ingredient missing in competition dressage today. Sitting watching for hours at Luis's last month, especially in the gallery looking down about a foot above the back of most of the horses working there, it was fascinating just watching the back and the hindquarters from that angle. The backs of those horses are truly supple, like watching a ripple going through the whole horse, and they are worked in a collected form from early on in training, and last through to their late twenties or even longer!

[Lyndsey Lewis]

This last summer I rented a whole bunch of video's (Pk's, Anja Berans...and a bunch of other similar folk but can't remember their names) and I was delighted to see how early the introduce piaffe!  They seem to see it not so much as a movement but a gymnastic to help strengthen and supple etc.

The reason I was happy to see it was because I used to think it would have to wait until I was doing Grand Prix!!  And considering I'm still in walk and just started with SI I reckoned I'd be long dead before I got to piaffe.

[Heather]

This last summer I rented a whole bunch of video's (Pk's, Anja Berans...and a bunch of other similar folk but can't remember their names) and I was delighted to see how early the introduce piaffe!  They seem to see it not so much as a movement but a gymnastic to help strengthen and supple etc.

The reason I was happy to see it was because I used to think it would have to wait until I was doing Grand Prix!!  And considering I'm still in walk and just started with SI I reckoned I'd be long dead before I got to piaffe.

  Lyndsey!!

But you are right, it is generally introduced pretty early in the education purely as a means of strengthening the hindquarters. I remember Anja saying a while back that she reckoned Iberian horses are actually less strong in the hind end than 'German horses' as she termed them, and she reckoned she finds the latter easier to collect!!

[Camacoona]

   disagreement is good... it generates discussion   

I didn't mean that I wouldn't start piaffe eary on in hand (or ridden for that matter on an unspoilt horse whose education is progressing well and is showing he is ready for that feeling of sit in his work!) .  I just meant that generally I would have used shoulder-in, reinback to walk and reinback to shortened trot as well as a little counted walk as my development towards piaffe and so piaffe would develop out of these exercises that have a little collection anyway.

I would say that using the shoulder-in and reinback-walk and reinback-trot transitions as well as counted walk are collected exercises, and therefore there would be some preliminary collection in evidence anyway before piaffe would be worked on. I did say that piaffe can help collection (and what i meant was to develop it further and generate greater engagement of the haunches) as you said in your reply.

Hope that clarifies my meaning in the earlier post.  I didn't mean to imply I wouldnt develop piaffe till later... at the end of the day ketchup couldn't canter in balance until she could piaffe and I wouldn't like to think you would want to wait 10 years before you could canter in balance      

[janehon]

 I wouldn't like to think you would want to wait 10 years before you could canter in balance      

I didn't want to but we soon will have been........

[Camacoona]

I didn't want to but we soon will have been........

To be honest I think it took me that long with Ketch!! but the Piaffe was the key!

I had to take that journey to discover that 'Cobs Can!' If I had already known that it might have happened sooner... when I think about it... poor Ketch!   

[Heather]

  disagreement is good... it generates discussion   

I didn't mean that I wouldn't start piaffe eary on in hand (or ridden for that matter on an unspoilt horse whose education is progressing well and is showing he is ready for that feeling of sit in his work!) .  I just meant that generally I would have used shoulder-in, reinback to walk and reinback to shortened trot as well as a little counted walk as my development towards piaffe and so piaffe would develop out of these exercises that have a little collection anyway.

I would say that using the shoulder-in and reinback-walk and reinback-trot transitions as well as counted walk are collected exercises, and therefore there would be some preliminary collection in evidence anyway before piaffe would be worked on. I did say that piaffe can help collection (and what i meant was to develop it further and generate greater engagement of the haunches) as you said in your reply.

Hope that clarifies my meaning in the earlier post.  I didn't mean to imply I wouldnt develop piaffe till later... at the end of the day ketchup couldn't canter in balance until she could piaffe and I wouldn't like to think you would want to wait 10 years before you could canter in balance      

Ok Omar, gotcha meaning now!!