tongue over bit- what to try?

[Erin's mum]

Lily is putting her tongue over the bit quite a bit. Some days she won't be too bad and other days it is more frequent. We really don't want this to become a habit and need to nip it in the bud so need to decide a plan of action. I'm sure its not to do with too much contact whilst ridden although she doesn't do it in sidereins on the lunge. She hasn't been ridden for very long so we were hoping she'd stop it as she became more used to the idea but as this doesn't seem to be happening I thought it might be worth trying some other bits to see if we can get her a bit happier.

At the moment she is in a full cheek snaffle with lozenge. I think the mouthpiece is made of brass but just found it lying around the house and can't for the life of me remember where it came from so could be wrong  It looks like this one http://www.richandson.co.uk/full-cheek-with-brass-lozenge-and-mouthpiece-mrs096-1178-p.asp .

I was thinking of trying something that wouldn't sit on her tongue to see if this would make a difference? Perhaps a hanging snaffle of some sort would do this? Or maybe I should try something thinner to give her mouth more room? It needs to be dressage legal as this is what she will be competing in mainly and also have a mild action. I don't know anything about neue schule/sprenger/myler bits etc. but am happy to try any of these types by borrowing from a bit bank if it is possible they may help  Any ideas would be seriously appreciated as at the moment we are concerned about riding her any more and making it worse.

Thank you

[Erin's mum]

this starter bit perhaps? http://www.horsebitbank.com/starter-bit-14mm-diameter-70mm-49.phtml

or the team up one? http://www.horsebitbank.com/team-up-bit-12mm-diameter-3-698.phtml

[issywizz]

Maybe try the team up bit.

But I would also think that its to do with objecting to either contact or aiding as she isnt doing it lunged.
In which case it may be an idea to have two pairs of reins and ride off the cavesson for a while? or even just one pair of reins on the cavesson and just have the bit there?

It often takes them a while to actually really understand the aids and this can initially result in too much pressure being applied which may well be what is happening-see whether she does it all the time with a rider or just when they give an aid.
if its all the time then the contact itself is inappropriate for her.

[ros]

For the initial stages of bitting we used to put a headcollar on under the bridle and tie the bit rings to the noseband (the metal joint). That stabilises the bit and lessens the risk of any nasty yanks, as well as giving a little nose pressure to support the bit action. Obviously you need to make sure it's all reasonably snug. I also wouldn't be using a jointed bit for the moment.

PS - agree with IW you need to look at possibility of contact issues.

[flintfootfilly]

I'd agree with the others.

Plus I wouldn't get too hung up about having to have a dressage-legal bit at this stage.  Far better to have whatever most suits her and makes it easiest for her to learn that her tongue can remain comfortable underneath the bit, and then when she's a bit further along, think about whether or not it's dressage-legal.

With one of my gang who used to put his tongue over the bit quite a lot, three things made a big difference:

- raising the bit in his mouth a couple of holes (tbh, it looked TOO high for my liking, but it seemed to suit him and he was much less busy with his mouth as a result)

- using a ported bit, so that he had more room for his tongue (and it would have been more difficult for him to get his tongue up over the port)

- focusing on having only one active rein at a time and keeping contact as elastic as I could.

Sarah

[Erin's mum]

Thanks for the help guys I have just bought an IV horse cavesson with bit rings http://www.frogpool.com/tack/lungeing-and-training-aids/lunge-cavessons-and-lunge-reins/iv-horse-super-pro-leather-lunging-cavesson.html so could I use this with two sets of reins if required?

ros sorry so do you mean attatch the bit to the headcollar and ride from the headcollar or still from the bit? I'd be interested to know

We have tried putting the bit up a couple of holes and this has made her do it less but I kinda feel that's just covering up a problem by preventing her from doing it (in her case anyway). I looked at a couple of low ports but am concerned that her pallet is too flat and it could hit her in the roof of her mouth. Reading about mouth conformations of different breeds (obviously a generalisation) DWBs are known for big tongues and Trakehners for small mouths so not the best combination in terms of bitting

I think what I may do is get both of those bits to try out (which would only lose me a tenner if they don't help), then see if there is any improvement in either. If it miraculously stops her doing it, great (but probably unlikely!) if there's an improvement we're one step further on, if not we'll stick to what we've got and for whichever bit deemed most suitable maybe try your suggestions of putting a rein on the cavesson. I was thinking I could also wrap a jointed bit in latex bandage to lessen the flexibility but then again that would increase diameter which maybe counter-productive

I'll have a good look at her mouth this evening anyway. 

[ros]

I mean ride from the bit 

I don't like the idea of wrapping bandage round a jointed bit - it might come undone. Personally I'd go for a plain mullen mouth snaffle, or a hard rubber Pelham (obviously only using the snaffle ring). Although the rubber is thicker she may find it more to her liking.

[issywizz]

Yes I would use the cavesson with either reins just off that or reins off both.

Ref the height, normally if the bit is too low they will mess around with it before a contact is taken aswell, I say normally because Ive yet to come across any rule that some horse doesnt disagree with 

[Larri DB]

I started Bally with the reins attached to the bit and the side of the headcollar, which kept it much more stable. She loathed my usual starter bit (a lovely thinnish mullen mouth eggbut) I've used for the job loads of times...but nope she didn't get on with it at all. She was happiest in a NS hanging cheek

[drummers mum]

Livvi was getting her tongue over the bit, I changed to the Neue schule team up bit and she is MUCH better in it, its thinner and slightly curved so less tongue pressure.

[janehon]

I have wrapped a jointed bit in latex bandage for Hon - for different reasons to you but it did reduce the movement of the joint. I used a full cheek french link as the start and wrapping it gave me a slightly curved bit with a softer finish. Hon wasn't happy in a straight bar but she liked this.

I found it didn't add too much in the way of thickness, cut a narrow strip off the edge and use that. Over time it started look like it was going to breakdown so I removed it and replaced. She used this for over 12mths till she was happy to move on to a proper joint.