on the subject of 'gadgets' - new 'gadgetless vid' pg 1 ;)

[shoveltrash]

i'd like to know what people think, here lately i have lunged Nico with side reins, as an experiment.  the IDEA is to encourage him to *reach* for the contact, over his topline.  thoughts?

lungeing with side reins 5-21-11

[winnieandben]

I personally would be happy with his work in side reins    I know a lot of folk will say why bother as he lunges very nicely anyway but I can see the benefit of them. 
I have given up lunging again for now as she was just getting stressy about it  not sure what to do about that.

[Lyndsey Lewis]

i'd like to know what people think, here lately i have lunged Nico with side reins, as an experiment.  the IDEA is to encourage him to *reach* for the contact, over his topline.  thoughts?

I'll be honest with you Trish...I hate it! I had just watched the vid with you riding which was really lovely and his trot was so free and he looked to me like he was working beautifully over his topline. But with the side reins it's like the shut down his lovely free movement as if he's been trained to do a western jog. And no it's not traumatic or cruel but to me it's like this horrible waste...

I would LOVE if you would do this exact some video WITHOUT the side reins so we can compare...??

Also throw in a couple of circles where you are just riding him...I think he looked lovely with you riding him!!

The thing for me about reaching for the contact is that if he looses his balance and reaches just a little too hard for the contact, it's gonna hurt. And I think that's what we see in those moments when his nose sort of bop bops up a little...??? So to avoid the hitting the bit a little too hard and hurting himself, he sort of tries to find that place where he is protecting himself from losing his balance which transfers into a bracing...??

[shoveltrash]

i thought that posting both ridden & lungeing vids simultaneously might be a good thing
i do see what you're saying Lyndsey......but i actually like it when Nico truly 'reaches' for the contact (he does this sporadically).  'was thinking he needed more impulsion?  are the SR too long? (causing inconsistency?)

he lunges beautifully without gagedtry .  i posted a vid a while back of his free lungeing.....the only tendency is for him to 'reach' foward/down/out to the point that he's on the forehand (stretching).  i will try and get some regular lungeing footage for comparison, though probably not today (it's 92/33C today!!!).  HOT

w&b is Jinx ok on the lunge at the walk?  how is your body language and whip usage?  you should post vid!
personally i never moved 'up' a gait until my horse was firmly established relaxed & such at the current gait.

[issywizz]

I agree with Lyndsey 

What happens if you lunge him without the side reins and ask for a little more step under without losing the rhythm? that *should* bring him up a little in front rather than him going too low. *should* 

[Lyndsey Lewis]

i thought that posting both ridden & lungeing vids simultaneously might be a good thing
i do see what you're saying Lyndsey......but i actually like it when Nico truly 'reaches' for the contact (he does this sporadically).  'was thinking he needed more impulsion?  are the SR too long? (causing inconsistency?)

Yeah I hear you...I guess I'm just not sure that this is the path to what you are looking for...??? There are certainly nice moments in the side reins which is why I've always really liked them. They will sort of force a balance and maybe that's good to show the horse that there is a comfy place to be and also to STAY even when more forward etc. But I'm really changing my mind about that thinking. I think we lose more than we gain and where I'm at right now is only using side reins if there is some sort of re-hab or mental problem etc. Even then I always wonder if there is a better way WITHOUT side reins but I'm just not able to find it...and ESPECIALLY now that I'm reading and learning from folks like MdJ and PK and Anja Beran...I like those guys sooo much and they are very much against side reins. So even though I don't fully understand why, I sort of defer to that way of thinking.

I don't see inconsistency in his gait...and actually don't see inconsistency really at all...at least for his level...he's only 5 right?? Just a wee bit of bop bop with the nose and a little bit of raising and lowering the head...experimenting with what's comfy...??...dunno...

he lunges beautifully without gagedtry .  i posted a vid a while back of his free lungeing.....the only tendency is for him to 'reach' foward/down/out to the point that he's on the forehand (stretching).  i will try and get some regular lungeing footage for comparison, though probably not today (it's 92/33C today!!!).  HOT

Oh I hear you on this as well!!! My mare lunges beautifully but when I ask for more, she just drops her head and goes more on her forehand. And as you say, it's nice for a stretch but I want her to start working carrying more weight behind. I know there are heaps of skilled trainers who do beautiful work on the lunge...building collection with transitions etc but before side reins, I think you can start using lateral work and transitions within the gait under saddle?? So the lateral work gets them stepping more under behind (so more weight on the hind!) and the slowing within the gait (half halt) also puts more weight behind. Counted walk, Shoulder-in, haunches in etc...and for me that builds impulsion...BECAUSE they start carrying more weight behind and BECAUSE we have them straighter...so when we ask for more forward it doesn't escape out the shoulder etc. 

Maybe long lines...?? But he works so nicely under saddle!!! I just think that's the best place to get them really working if they are sound and work as nicely as your boy.  I was thinking that when I watched your riding video that he is now so ready for some shoulder fore etc. That would help you keep that shoulder in front of his hiney...??

[ParisDiamond]

I would personally have the side reins shorter if I was going to use them at all.

Regarding getting him to reach lower, have you ever threaded the lunge line through the inside bit ring, then attached it to the girth?  I found it invaluable in training my mare to work through and learn to balance herself without a rider.  This might be a big no no in some circles, but it worked for us, and allowed my horse to work out her own balance, particularly in canter.

[flintfootfilly]

Aren't the side reins just pulling him onto his forehand and causing the back end to leak out?  It seems that how they are attached, he has to have his head really low and just can't balance there without dropping his shoulder and losing any connection through his body?

Do people attach sidereins at wither height?  Just wondering whether that would produce a more pleasing result, especially if they were still kept nice and long?  If they helped him keep his shoulder up maybe?

Must admit I opt for long reins rather than side reins as I prefer being able to adjust each one individually at any time.

Sarah

[shoveltrash]

i should really try long reining him

he has to have his head really low and just can't balance there without dropping his shoulder and losing any connection through his body?

i think it's because they are too long.  watching again, i do think they're too long (?).....but i'm so hesitant using 'short' side reins on a horse! 
SR should be attached at the girth, if the rider is connected the tripod of the seat/thighs (with a L bow, arms belong to the horse) that's where the contact actually "lives."  not my opinion per se, but what i've been taught.

Lyndsey i'm CRAP at lateral work
i have the horrid tendency to shift my seat.  just not confident enough to experiment....but we CAN do shoulder fore.
and i'm certainly not going to 'play' at counted walk!  i'd make a mess of it

What happens if you lunge him without the side reins and ask for a little more step under without losing the rhythm? that *should* bring him up a little in front rather than him going too low. *should*

should!
this lungeing session was actually pre-ride (the other vid).  i need to play around with these alternative ideas more

great discussion
thanks!!!!

[SueC]

There's two reasons I can think of where I would use side reins.  One to teach a horse that he can move and have a contact, taking away the extra weight of a rider, the other to help keep him straight when teaching a novice rider.  With the former they'd have to be of a length that he has a contact, not that he has to look for it, with the latter they can be in loops, they just form a loose channel to encourage, not force it.

Reaching for a contact isn't one I'd use them for tbh.  I think if they are long enough to do that, they'll be loose, then when the horse stretches, he'll hit the bit and back off, rather than try to stay there (unless he likes leaning I suppose).  If they're short enough to keep a steady contact in trot, I wouldn't walk him too much then anyway and there's not really room for reaching out and down.

I rarely use them anyway tbh.

In your video I'd say your horse is backing off, starting with his hindquarters.  He's mincing a bit.  I wouldn't use them for him if reach and relaxation was my intention with them.

As usual. YMMV

[shoveltrash]

thank you Sue!
(what does YMMV mean?)

based on this feedback i think i'll ditch them for now, i certainly don't want to make my horse 'backed up'!
<sigh>

[SueC]

Your mileage may vary. 

I don't know what he's like generally, so if you feel that the side-reins are having the effect you're looking for, in comparison to without them, your mileage may vary. 

[jenb]

Agree with SueC.  Those side reins are not teaching him to reach into the contact, they are too long, and as far as I could see, he never actually takes a contact during that vid.  He stretches down nicely, but the side reins are doing nothing to help that and so could be ditched altogether for the purposes of that work.  I personally don't like side reins and have given chapter and verse as to why on here before, so I won't bore people by repeating myself!   

Do you ever vary your lunge work a bit?  Or is it always 20m circle in one pace?  Wasn't sure if it was just for the purposes of the vid, but I found it a little boring tbh...  I guess I am used to giving Gazdag plenty of things to do on the lunge to keep his mind occupied and avoid him thinking up his own entertainment - which normally involves dashing and leaping around like an idiot....   

[shoveltrash]

thanks Jenb!  yes, for the purpose of the video, to keep things short and in the camera frame i kept the 20m circle.  at the beginning, "boredom" was beneficial (we were working on relaxation).  but now we do need more variety .

clip from today without side reins
(my camera was a bit off-center )

lunge take 2

some better i think - i just cannot make myself shorten the side reins (i don't want to restrict him!), so for now we'll work without them and work on a bit more energy AND variety .  in the clip i periodically 'ask' for more energy/impulsion, but we might need a tad more?

all in all, still an interesting experiment!  


eta: "your mileage may vary"? ok!

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Thanks for following through and posting the video Trish!!! Good one too..nice and clear! He really is  good guy 

So keeping in mind I'm no expert here but I liked the overall ripple through his body better than when he has the side reins. The only thing I could suggest now is making the circle a wee bit smaller and moving around a bit...??.. and after you have made it smaller and AS you are allowing/sending him back out, then push a little on his belly to get a bit more bend....??? Keeping the contact so you can influence him in a way that he doesn't fall out over his shoulder...??

Also moving around you can find more natural places to increase energy. Do it when you see he really has his balance well etc.

Of course now I'm caught up in the Marijke work and so I would bring him back to the walk and get more bend there first on a smaller circle. You have all the other pieces!! Relaxation and steady forward and out. If you ever get bored with him, I'll swap you for Ruby!!