Canter question - advice needed

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Both my horses (not my perfect pony) cross canter behind when running free and I'm just trying to figure out why.

My understanding is that if your horse is going left, and cross canters behind (so on the right lead behind), then it's the LEFT hind that is weak...?? That is if it is just a weakness issue and not some lameness.

so when a horse is cantering normally along, it's the inside hind leg that does the most work...? At least the carrying work...? So if it cross canters, then one possibility is that the inside hind is weaker...??

My mare is always pure on the lunge and under saddle but when she's racing around like a maniac in the paddock she will cross canter behind to the right. My boy Ruby runs like a rabbit with both hinds so close together sometimes I can't tell if he's cross cantering or not but on the lunge, he usually cannot pick up the left lead at all and when I have managed to get it, he will cross canter behind. Very very occasionally I have got a true left lead out of him but he looks miserable. 

I talked to a woman recently who said one way to strengthen a hind leg is to walk along the side of a hill and the leg that is on the DOWN side of the hill will work harder...?? Anyone else have an opinion on this? So I thought with all the pilates and stretches and slow work I'm doing with Ruby I might try strengthening his weaker hind leg...if I knew which one it was 

Also if I was to put up a video of him moving, would anyone be able to see which hind was weaker it (if in fact one is weaker - he could have back or hind end issues I realise)?

If so, what kind of video?

[shoveltrash]

not ignoring you Lyndsey......getting ready to head for work (ugh), and have to put my thinking cap on........for a reply here, not work .  promise i'll be back and reply!

[cirocco]

I think your seeing the same thing as we had with Jim, so I totally understand.

He was shocking, the worst I have ever seen. I have ridden other horses that were dis-united, but they seemed to be youngsters who hadn't learned how to use their legs yet.

Ill go with Jim, see if it helps.
I got him in June obese, so we didn't school anything other than walk and trot for months, it would not have been fair. Also because he was restricted to a small paddock we never saw him do anything other than a titchy trot.
When I did give him some freedom after about 2 months, I saw that he would change legs all the time, he was also dis-united cornering, it was odd seeing him cantering around off balance and seemingly not bothered.

When we began to ask for canter, we found that he never ever went correctly. He also never went on the correct leg in front. When we asked for canter he used to throw himself into the air with his front legs, and bunny hop behind, legs together and then would put one hind leg forward, 'either' so not always correct. he was also never correct going right, so if he was going round to the right he would be on the left hind lead.

We put his problems down totally to him being so huge. He was struggling to carry the weight, and so he had 'learned' how to canter. To actually get himself up off the ground he had to jump up with his front end, and jump up behind. Poor thing hadn't a clue.

We tried Lunging, but im not a fan on lunging so wasn't convinced it would be right for him, not being close enough to catch him when he was 'wrong' was a waste of time. And so the plan was to teach him to canter from scratch ridden.
Its been a long long learning curve.
I wasn't sure we would ever get him to canter correctly, and not be dis-united. In the school he 'always' changed legs behind when we were going down the long side of the school.
So we only ever cantered in figures of eight. Only ever asked for canter on a bend, 'and' Only ever did one or two strides before going back to trot.
From christmas to about March he was always only ever asked for this sort of canter transition until we were sure that we would get it right, which we did from 85% to 98%.
Canter on the long side needed planning. He had to be slightly over ridden, so I would ride a circle and then go down the long side from the circle holding a slight right bend [as right was his worst side] I would have more weight into my inside stirrup and holding him in the outside rein, the inside rein was wide. So keeping him 'looking' right, and being ready to add another circle if I felt that he was in danger of changing legs.

Its been hard work, and taken longer than I would have expected. But im glad we have come through it, because its great to learn to sort out a problem.

I have seen him so different when he's out in the field too. He is amost always correct when hes cantering round. He almost never goes round a corner dis-united. I can only put this down to the schooling.

I think that we learned that ridden schooling was the best way to tackle this problem, as it allowed me to be there to stop him from making a mistake 'instantly'. This would not have been possible had he been lunged.

I too thought he had a problem, either in his back or hind legs. This was not the case, he was just totally unschooled.

[cirocco]

Just adding, we are riding P18 usually in a lesson. Which has a lot of canter and he has not been disunited once in the last few weeks. Plus he almost always goes off on the correct foreleg lead.

[Lyndsey Lewis]

I too thought he had a problem, either in his back or hind legs. This was not the case, he was just totally unschooled.

I could see how this could be one scenario - not really a matter of one weaker hind leg necessarily? Lucky for you and good job working  through it!

I live in hope that this is the case with Ruby but he has some other odd symptoms. Here are two video's of one of his symptoms - at least it's one of the things he does that alarms me and makes me wonder if there is something amiss. It still could just be weakness but I'd be interested to hear what other's think...?? The first video was taken last year and the second one was taken just about a month ago when I lunged him for the very first time of the season. It was really depressing when he did it cause I thought he looked so much stronger this year. I don't actually work him on the lunge I just every now and then put him on to sort of see what I have and evaluate his way of going and was lucky to catch this as it's so hard to explain it.

I'm sure the first thing anyone will think is GET A VET  but I've been there done that. I've had one vet say he'll need an mri cause she thinks it's a neck issue and a nerve problem but I'm not ready to go that route...I'm counting on correct flat work...

Rubycollapse

rubyspringcollapse2011.wmv

[shoveltrash]

i can't see the vids right now

agree with cirocco

STRENGTH ISSUE
that's what i'd attribute this to.  and that's about it honestly.  if any horse is weak (muscular-wise), it's harder to sustain a proper canter, and co-ordinate things.

i'm a huge fan of lungeing.  *proper* lungeing .  i actually got my horse cantering on the lunge balanced & united before ever doing it under saddle.  but - trot had to be confirmed/balanced first.  building the strength at trot was important.

'will try and come back to the vids when my connection is better!

[intouch]

In haste - Could that be slipping stifle on near side?

[Lyndsey Lewis]

STRENGTH ISSUE
that's what i'd attribute this to.  and that's about it honestly.  if any horse is weak (muscular-wise), it's harder to sustain a proper canter, and co-ordinate things.

i'm a huge fan of lungeing.  *proper* lungeing .  i actually got my horse cantering on the lunge balanced & united before ever doing it under saddle.  but - trot had to be confirmed/balanced first.  building the strength at trot was important.

I'm normally on the same page as you here about the lunging. I love lunging when it's done right and have always used it to start, train, balance and strengthen a horse but I'm just not able to work Ruby normally on the lunge. It's so hard to explain and even the video's are tricky because it looks like he just needs better training. But asking him to trot and canter around on a circle makes him miserable but also he looks physically miserable. He's beautifully behaved and trying his heart out but his butt crabs sideways and he gets really more crooked and then gets braced and panics. I've clicker trained him to go slow and put his head down etc which he will do but it's just not right. So....I quit trying to lunge him as a means to strengthen him and I'm doing the in-hand work etc and then every now and then I put him on the lunge just to see if he's better.

So that's why I was wondering about which leg is weaker (or hurting..??) when they dis-unite behind on a particular lead. Even if the horse is just weak in general, they still have one weaker hind leg right...?? So I just want to be SURE which leg is weaker on Ruby.

[Lyndsey Lewis]

In haste - Could that be slipping stifle on near side?

I don't know... ...it  has been suggested before but I don't think so. I'm familiar with stifle issues and this one doesn't fit. It could be though...I just don't know...and he doesn't do it often enough. He does do this sort of mini version of the collapse...it's more like just a slight 'give' that's hard to see if you're not really watching for it and he does it on both hinds. I THINK it's more pronounced when walking down a hill and I know horse's with stifle issues have trouble going down hill...??

But Ruby backs beautifully and doesn't have soreness in the stifles and that test where you pull their butts sideways he passes with flying colors.

Also his whole body sinks...and I think with catching stifle they sort of just leave the leg behind...???

But...I  really don't know. I'm just trying to work him to strengthen everything and hope that I can work him through it...I may never know...???

[pico]

Another thing to watch on for cantering on the lunge to try to detect hind leg issues is the transition down from canter to trot. When on the correct lead, in the transition stride down from canter to trot the outside hind takes more weight. So you watch the hinds when asking for the down transition, and if there's a shortened stride with the *outside* hind it points to a problem. You can see the horse is trying to get the weight off the ouchy hind and onto the other one as quickly as possible. With Pico, when his arthritis in his worse hind flares I can see uneveness in the canter-trot transition even when it's not visible on either rein at trot. (Pico has stifle and hock arthritis  to varying degrees in both hinds)

I know you said Ruby doesn't canter united on the left rein, but it sounds like he does to the right? If so, you could try seeing if you see anything uneven in the canter-trot transition going right

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Another thing to watch on for cantering on the lunge to try to detect hind leg issues is the transition down from canter to trot. When on the correct lead, in the transition stride down from canter to trot the outside hind takes more weight. So you watch the hinds when asking for the down transition, and if there's a shortened stride with the *outside* hind it points to a problem. You can see the horse is trying to get the weight off the ouchy hind and onto the other one as quickly as possible. With Pico, when his arthritis in his worse hind flares I can see uneveness in the canter-trot transition even when it's not visible on either rein at trot. (Pico has stifle and hock arthritis  to varying degrees in both hinds)

I know you said Ruby doesn't canter united on the left rein, but it sounds like he does to the right? If so, you could try seeing if you see anything uneven in the canter-trot transition going right

Interesting! thanks Pico!! I will watch for this.  Yes he canters true on the right lead but now that you mention it, he has trouble committing to the trot!!!! So his canter gets slower and slower (but not collected..just sort of smaller) and he falls in for the trot transition. However, I'll try and get it on video and take a closer look.

Do you know in the actual canter, which hind leg has to do the most work?

Thanks!!!!

[Lyndsey Lewis]

I asked the question on the Marijke forum and go the following answer. Honestly, I don't understand what he's saying! I'm off riding now so will try and get him to clarify but maybe someone here can make sense of his answer...??

This is the way I asked the question:

"Can anyone tell me the possible causes when a horse dis-unites behind at the canter? If the horse is on the right lead, and dis-unites behind, does it meant the right hind is weaker? In other words, in the canter, which hind leg has to do the most work? Thanks!"

This was the answer:

outside hindleg. does the most work. because the canter is a more traversale gait.

on the right lead, it is the left hindleg what is weaker then the right hindleg. so most likely a left bended horse with a more stif hindleg.

Start with the canter on the moment that you can shoulder-inn and quater-inn on the circle in trot. then the horse is strong enough to canter,

[cirocco]

Ive watched the video, and see your problem now. She goes down on the near hind, its like she looses the ability to support herself on the hind leg. Ive seen slipping stifle, it doesn't look like that.
Lots of horses have a little loss of action behind, willi was the same, and went to Leahurst for that problem when he was 6, [that the vet never saw and suggested that I was mentally ill ]
He had every possible test, including dye into the spine!.. he was there 2 weeks but they said that it was weakness not anything really bad.
I had him schooled to drive three weeks after getting him home, and although he always did it, he was never in danger of falling over.

But ive no idea what to say to you about this, as the 'drop' is quite a bit worse than willi's was.

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Ive watched the video, and see your problem now. She goes down on the near hind, its like she looses the ability to support herself on the hind leg. Ive seen slipping stifle, it doesn't look like that.
Lots of horses have a little loss of action behind, willi was the same, and went to Leahurst for that problem when he was 6, [that the vet never saw and suggested that I was mentally ill ]
He had every possible test, including dye into the spine!.. he was there 2 weeks but they said that it was weakness not anything really bad.
I had him schooled to drive three weeks after getting him home, and although he always did it, he was never in danger of falling over.

But ive no idea what to say to you about this, as the 'drop' is quite a bit worse than willi's was.

Well this is really helpful! I think  your the first person to have seen something familiar with their own horse (even if wasn't as bad).

Did you ever ride Willi? Anything else you can tell me about him would be great...was he ever lame, did he do it worse with or without work...etc

Thanks!!!!

Oh and yes my vet experience was a nightmare! I know they thought I was mentally ill!! Ruby of course didn't show the 'drop' at the vets and the idiots thought he moved 'fine'!!!

[cirocco]

if i can find the vets report I got back from Leahurst i'll post it.

Willi was kind of 'odd' behind from being a foal. I got him when he was 13 months. When I was leading him out in hand I saw that sometimes he wasn't taking a 'proper' stride with his near hind.
I had the vet look at him when he was vaccinated, but he saw no problem, and advised me that what I was seeing was just baby weakness, he said that a welsh cob was slow growing and that id not to worry.

I backed him at 3 .1/3, but did not ride him for more than just twenty minutes a couple of days a week, we did more in hand stuff, walking through the village, up and down hill's and getting him used to the world. But, I had still been watching this odd thing that he did in his near hind, which was like a 'twitch' a flick or dropping, of fetlock joint. He would take a step, then drop on that side at the fetlock, never lame, and trotting it was hardly a problem, but he still did it.

When I began to ride him he was awful, he constantly dropped on that fetlock joint. I can remember getting off and walking him so that I could try to see what was going on.
Things didn't improve. I was worried, but my vet became frustrated with me, because he said that there was nothing that he could see to cause any problems, even though id called him out on a dozen occasions..
And so when he was 6 I demanded from my vet that willi was sent to Leahurst. I had been schooling him regularly thinking that it would strengthen his muscles. Plus and we had done a few dressage tests, he was really good so it seemed sensible that I find out if he could do the training to go further. I also wanted to do ride and drive classes, and had booked him to go to be schooled to drive.
He was sent home from Leahurst with a clean bill of health. They found no weakness, no nerve damage, nothing in his back or hind quarters to make him do the 'flick', or 'twitch', with his hind fetlock.

I took the advice and carried on. He has always been the same, still does it now, and only been retired due to laminitis. He was driven for years, [barefoot ] I schooled him to a reasonable standard and we were scoring highly in the tests he did.
He was never ever lame.
Willi was trotted up and down the road, turned and backed up, I could see the 'twitch' the vet did not. I put it down to the fact that he had no 'eye' for that sort of thing.

When he was being schooled to drive and was in his final two weeks, the trainer was driving him for up to ten miles at a time, up hill and down dale. He never once had any reason to call me. I asked him on several occasions if the pony was sound, he said he was.
Wiili was ridden by my O.H until last year .

I have to say it wasn't three weeks after he came back that he went to be schooled to drive it was more like 8 weeks. Didn't think it was so long had to re check my diary.

The week after he came back from Leahurst I called in a physio called Fiona Johnson. She had been recommended to me by a friend that trained ex Racers. Fiona is fantastic, and saw the problem right away. She said that William was suffering from a trapped nerve which he had probably had from being a foal, even pre birth!..
She gave me a load of exercises to do with him every day. twice a day!.
She also left me a tense machine that I used, and which he loved!...
It might be an idea to try to get her to see your horse. I know that if it was me now I would go see her, she is wonderful. I think she is up at the re hab training place in Kendal, or she was. Google it and get their phone no, they will give you her phone no, or try to get her by googling her  perhaps.
Thinking about it, I think thats the route id go.
best of luck, keep us posted