Chomping

[Casey76]

Background: I'm currently riding Pinto with a bit very similar to this, which has copper inserts on the tongue side:


His bridle is plain, and currently has no noseband.

He goes very nicely in this combination, and will soften and stretch properly, when asked.

However... when he is asked to concentrate on something (e.g. haunches in, work s-l-o-w-l-y, stand square) he chomps.  It's not a stress reaction, and he doesn't do it when he is excited.  He doesn't pull or yaw on the reins like he used to, he just clacks his teeth together, sometimes accompanies by a curles nose, but not always.

Now obviously I don't want to just strap his mouth shut, it has taken a lot of time and effort and bit combinations (and bitless...) to come up with this current combination of the Western Myler and no noseband for him to work as well as he does.

Obviously I would lose marked for "submission" in a dressage test (though I'm unlikely to be competing in the near future!)

Does anyone else see this as a problem, or should I allow my horse this self expression?

[Christine]

Hi Casey76 Danni started chomping as he came into more collection but when he "got" each movement it subsided - for him it was a stage that he went through if that helps.

[ros]

Sometimes you see little kids sticking their tongues out or chewing their pencils when they're concentrating - maybe it's the same thing 

[cirocco]

At the racing stable, we used to wrap the bit in bandage, and rub a bit of treacle on the bandage. [ frowned upon today I suppose] but they seemed to suck rather than chomp...AND it took their mind off things.

[ros]

Only trouble with that is it can work loose & choke them 

[shoveltrash]

echoing what Christine said, i've been told that as a horse becomes better balanced, this subsides.  the only concern would be if he gets his tongue over the bit.  i do believe in using a cavesson to establish 'limits'.

[Lyndsey Lewis]

echoing what Christine said, i've been told that as a horse becomes better balanced, this subsides.  the only concern would be if he gets his tongue over the bit.  i do believe in using a cavesson to establish 'limits'.

I think the reason horses put their tongue's over the bit is to protect the upper palate from harsh use of the bit. A cavesson would not be my choice of 'corrections' for this problem!! But maybe I misunderstand you Trish..???

I think when we get any kind of 'busy' mouth that is outside the  norm then we have pushed that horse just a wee bit over threshold. Yes it might come good over time but we also might read the chomping as a sign to just slow down the training a bit...??

I'm not sure why you think it's not related to stress Casey..?? How can you tell? From your explanation that he only does it when you are challenging him a bit more, it sounds like stress...?? Not saying that's so terrible - we do have to challenge them...just maybe lighten up when he starts chomping or shorter sessions interspersed more with something easier and see if that fixes it...???

[shoveltrash]

Lyndsey i agree with what you say, but there's also the scenario of a young/green horse who is *discovering* bitting.  if they get their tongue over the bit, it causes a great deal of discomfort and can create psychological problems imho.  i'm thinking that you may be right in regards to Casey's horse - could be stress, in which case a cavesson is no solution.  (btw i'd never clamp a horse's mouth shut ). 

[Casey76]

I'm not sure why you think it's not related to stress Casey..?? How can you tell? From your explanation that he only does it when you are challenging him a bit more, it sounds like stress...?? Not saying that's so terrible - we do have to challenge them...just maybe lighten up when he starts chomping or shorter sessions interspersed more with something easier and see if that fixes it...???

Hi Lynsdsey, I'd say he wasn't stressed, because he isn't giving off any other stress indicators (tense muscles, tail swishing, sweating up.)  The normal stress signals for me from Pinto are ears up my nose, short crabby strides, stomping, tense neck etc.

He only ever clacks his teeth when I'm asking for something which requires concentration.  Once we move past that and change the exercise he stops immediately.

Before, when asking for a square halt, he would halt, pause, then sidle.  Now he will halt, pause, think about moving, clack his teeth a couple of times - and it is here where i have to be very careful with my timing, not to praise/reward the teeth clack, but the immobility.

I might change his bit again, to see if it is that, just in case.  But if it is just a concentration thing, then i'd rather allow him this while he thinks about things (before they become second nature) than use a noseband if I don't need to.  He doesn't open his mouth to escape the bit at all.

[Flyingfox]

Hi Lynsdsey, I'd say he wasn't stressed, because he isn't giving off any other stress indicators (tense muscles, tail swishing, sweating up.)  The normal stress signals for me from Pinto are ears up my nose, short crabby strides, stomping, tense neck etc.

He only ever clacks his teeth when I'm asking for something which requires concentration.  Once we move past that and change the exercise he stops immediately.

Before, when asking for a square halt, he would halt, pause, then sidle.  Now he will halt, pause, think about moving, clack his teeth a couple of times - and it is here where i have to be very careful with my timing, not to praise/reward the teeth clack, but the immobility.

I might change his bit again, to see if it is that, just in case.  But if it is just a concentration thing, then i'd rather allow him this while he thinks about things (before they become second nature) than use a noseband if I don't need to.  He doesn't open his mouth to escape the bit at all.

I will wade in here and could be totally wrong, so don't take it to heart -  but my thoughts are that he IS stressed and this is why he is chomping, clacking his teeth, fidgeting and unsettled.
I think that the earlier signals of stress - like breathing and heart rate increases, may be being being missed, as you only mention a high tense neck and shortened strides etc as the signs of his stress levels increasing, which are signals which come after the initial more subtle stress responses. If I continue with this theory, I would look carefully at how quickly and how clearly and completely the release from pressure is being offered. Maybe this is a horse who is highly sensitive to pressure of some kinds and even though the pressure to perform whatever may be slight, it may cause anxiety if the release is not complete and obvious and immediate enough. Do you use food rewards when he gets it 'right'? I find this a great way to lighten the mood, and allow the horse some time off 'doing' to chew and relax while enjoying the treat before re-visitng the movement. .Just my thoughts.

[Casey76]

I don't give food rewards when I'm riding.  I attempted this once, and it resulted in much running backwards and spinning, which is very un-Pinto like

[Flyingfox]

I don't give food rewards when I'm riding.  I attempted this once, and it resulted in much running backwards and spinning, which is very un-Pinto like

Sounds like he likes his food then!  

Can you get off to give the reward? Do you give treat rewards when schooling from the ground? I know its going to feel  disruptive at first and a nuisance having to hop on and off, but maybe this would break the mood up and relieve his tension effectively. Alternatively, you could get another person to deliver the treat for you, or hold him while you deliver it, as long as he knows you are praising him and he has a break form the 'work' this will also help him feel less anxious and therefore less inclined to chomp. Sometimes we are in such a hurry to get things 'done' while we are schooling, it rushes the horses too much mentally and they never get a chance to assimilate what they have done. I have found stopping at a point when the horse has done well, to give a treat reward ( I can give these from the horses backs OK in my four horses instances) and pausing with no pressure to 'do' anything at all except chew the treat makes a lot of difference in how my horses react to the next try. This break is obviously appreciated and my uber sensitive Lipizzaner has turned from a panicky bolter to a listening attentive horse. He knows the pressure will not continue indefinitely in the schooling session and he knows clearly when he has done well, as I indicate this by a bridging word, (or you can use a 'click' as in clicker training techniques - some of which are talked about on this forum) after which I stop him, treat him, and have a break. Then we continue refreshed, with the same movement, or perhaps we might move on to a different one.

Casey, I dont mean to lecture you one bit here -  I am just telling you what I have found to work well  with my horses and I am hoping perhaps it may work well for you too. You obviously care a lot about your horse or you would not have posted on here in the first place, so I wish you all the very best success in helping him to stop his chomping habit!!!  

[Lyndsey Lewis]

I don't give food rewards when I'm riding.  I attempted this once, and it resulted in much running backwards and spinning, which is very un-Pinto like

  Yes it does sound like he likes his food!!!

If you did want to persevere with treats though it is easy to teach them they don't have to go backwards and spin. Just start by putting the mounting block against near a wall with the wall behind his butt sort of. Then give a little treat while you are standing on the mounting block but make him turn his head for it. (If you don't use a mounting block, then just do it from the ground. Then give a treat while your foot is in the stirrup, then while he is chewing that, get on and reach down low and offer another.  A few in quick succession will do it. If he really is too eager, have someone hold him - but he will need to learn to turn his  head! That's a good stretch anyway so if you do treat from the saddle, use both sides.

It's very common for this to happen to horse's who are not used to it but they can learn quickly. And it might be a good thing to try with your boy when you give a little break as chewing does help to relax them. I think Flyingfox's thoughts are right. It does seem to actually help them learn to deal with more pressure and stress when ridden. There is actually a whole protocol for teaching dogs to become more acceptable of stress for some of their competitions. They call it something like stress tolerance...??? They don't try and teach them NOT be stressed because they know that the competition WILL be stressful but they teach them to tolerate it better....??  They do it by stressing them a tiny bit then heaps of rewards then a tiny bit more etc...maybe there is a dog  trainer here who can explain it but when I read about it, I wondered why we didn't so something like that for horses...?? I think me might do it inadvertantly by trial and error but with the dogs, they were a bit more scientific...