Rope handling, tai chi, and the tipping point - Isabella style

[hilary]

Have had an interesting week this week with Isabella.
Isabella has had probs with tmj and back , improving with osteopath. What I realised last week was, how bad my knee had been for the past year -  which basically meant I had not led her out at all over the past year.  2 new ligaments in one knee, and a large loose body removed from the other , and I feel " as fit as a bucher's dog"!

Isabella has had the most c/t , and I have done very little of another toolkit ie natural horsemanship.

Anyway, when I walked her out, she would rush past me , to turn around and go home, when going away from home. If I turn towards home , she can walk as slow as I go, and stop on a breath ( totally different from planters, who want to rush home  -  but she has alway needed to move!)

There could be many different ways to deal with this -  not take her out -  but our bubble has shrunk quite a lot, and it needs to grow ( without bursting).  Take her out in a bridle , for control. Use a rope halter ,  NH style, or a pressure halter.

One of Alexs exercises is called hip shoulder shoulder. what you do is walk along, slide your hand up ( the hand furthest away from horseso you ar trning into her) the lead rop, get the "hip" ie ensure the inside hind steps right under  -  it can be very sub tle, then ask for a step of reinback. swap sides, and ask for a backwards step. Then carry on.
IN the school, Isabella got kind of too sensitive. Sliding a hand up the rein was like shouting at her, and she was so so light  -  so we havent practised it for ages. It basically evolves into a slight weight shift back and then forwards.

But it also works as a way of disengaging the hips, and asking for reinback when "control" is on your mind. But , if done correctly, ( and certainly going up the lane not all mine was done correctly), one is not upping the pressure, one is merely deflecting the pressure they are creating. As the hip comes under, there is  a point where it is very easy for them to step backward. When teaching it you c/t for the hip, then the step back, ( swap sides while feeding) then for the other side,

SO, as soon as you feel a surge forward, ask for the hip, then ask for the step back -  that takes no pressure ( ideally, though when i got it wrong there was definteie pressure). c/t , swap sides, continue.

The Tipping Point is a book we discussed one clinic -  by Malcolm Gladwell  -  interesting, describes various tipping points of epidemics, why a fashion item becomes the rage  etc etc    -  an interesting read. In the above exercise there is a definite tipping point when the energy transfers from engaging the hip to backwards.

So... we progress very slowly down the road. .It is a small lane though seems incredibly busy! We can still only go a few paces without surging, but our hip shoulder shoulder has gone from  a control item ( except when I get it wrong and she goes a little too far forwards)  to something a lot lighter again.  ~The tai chi in the title is the sort of energy  one needs  -  somehow grounded, and as firm as a flexible rock.

This is a good discussion we are having at the moment ! And best done on the ground.!

I know there has been a lot of discussion about c/t and neg reinforcement at the moment. The aim with this , is to deflect the energy, rather than increase energy to create the horse to go back. If you use a human horse you can feel the difference. I didnt get it all right by any means, but some seemed really easy, and at times not so.


PS apolgies if above does not a=make much sense -  would have videoed but hands defintely full! Will try and find example of what I mean,

[ash]

I am very interested in hip shoulder shoulder as an exercise that really might help Tilly.  I have Alex's DVD, but I would love to see more examples if you can find any Hilary. 

[hilary]

isabella 8 june

Ash, this may explain a little.

[Trudi]

  thanks Hilary, very interesting as I've used this with Chapiro to stop him rushing through me in the shoulder-in, lovely to see it in action with Isabella. I have cone envy 

[ash]

Right, just thinking aloud here so no one take offence, this is literally just what springs to mind when I watch vids of this movement, including Alex's.

When I ask a horse to back up for gymnastic purposes, ideally I would like to see the abdominals engaged, and the horse 'together' with a lift through the back.  Mostly when I see people doing this exercise, the horse's head is up, it's back hollow, and it looks kind of 'strung out'.  Now I don't know if this is because of tension caused by disengaging the quarters making the horse feel a bit vulnerable, or if it because I've only really seen 'work in progress'.  But it does just look a bit uncomfortable.

Secondly, I can understand the purpose of disengaging the quarters if a horse is getting to be a handful when leading him somewhere, but Trudi, your remark made me think that if a horse is rushing through a movement in a 'schooling scenario', couldn't there be a deeper issue e.g. emotional tension or physical imbalance causing him to rush, and would therefore disengaing the quarters and un balancing the horse further be the answer?

Really not a criticism of anyone, just what springs to mind.  I could very well have the wrong end of the stick! 

[Lyndsey Lewis]

When I ask a horse to back up for gymnastic purposes, ideally I would like to see the abdominals engaged, and the horse 'together' with a lift through the back.  Mostly when I see people doing this exercise, the horse's head is up, it's back hollow, and it looks kind of 'strung out'.  Now I don't know if this is because of tension caused by disengaging the quarters making the horse feel a bit vulnerable, or if it because I've only really seen 'work in progress'.  But it does just look a bit uncomfortable.

Secondly, I can understand the purpose of disengaging the quarters if a horse is getting to be a handful when leading him somewhere, but Trudi, your remark made me think that if a horse is rushing through a movement in a 'schooling scenario', couldn't there be a deeper issue e.g. emotional tension or physical imbalance causing him to rush, and would therefore disengaing the quarters and un balancing the horse further be the answer?

Really not a criticism of anyone, just what springs to mind.  I could very well have the wrong end of the stick! 

I'm glad this topic has come up and I'm glad to see the above post. I've never really liked the hip shoulder shoulder stuff for my own horses because for me it's never felt like particularly good biomechanics. But I didn't spend much time with it and maybe just needed to break it down more when I did it....??

I can see how it's nice to have some sort of 'move' to get the horse's attention when out walking and they get too strong and perhaps hip shoulder shoulder is good in that instance? People do seem to like it and Hilary you did find it helpful right...??

The piece I don't like is the falling out over the outside shoulder and often the examples I've seen make the move look somewhat aversive to the horse...? The other confusing part for me (I've also seen the dvd - I rented it from giddyupflix) is that there is soooo little +R involved. So for me it was just like normal traditional in-hand training with a click and treat at the end of the back-up...?? Now Alex talks about building it in smaller increments but that's not what I saw. I know making video's is tough and you want to get all this information packed in and Alex might do it very differently with my horses but so far from what I've seen, this does not look like a good method for improving balance and body awareness etc. I think I would rather follow Marijke's routine and break that down into smaller pieces.

I've known Alex and her work for about 12 years...?...and I've seen a HUGE shift from mostly +R to mostly -R (at least when it comes to riding and more advanced in-hand work) so I've kind of lost interest in her for what I want as there are plenty of better trainers for classical work if it's going to be the -R route. I will say that her including more -R into her work was a big disappointment for me. There are really so few folks out there who have her behaviour science background who are exploring +R. Not that I blame her! Firstly I don't think there is anything wrong with -R and also using +R for EVERYTHING is really forging new ground and so it's very very tough. Which is of course why I want someone else to do the leg work for me... And it's also a very interesting topic deserving of it's own thread about just when -R is aversive and when it is information the horse wants so it becomes positive...and perhaps more -R is actually kinder to the horse because it makes things clearer...???? 

But I love that others continue to do her exercises and what she teaches cause then I get to see how it plays out!! 

[hilary]

No, you are right it does look uncomfortable  -  as I mentioned before Isabella has had the osteopath etc , and this was at the beginning of it.
When I said she was anticipating it, her back up had changed,and yes she was trying to rush through it.I have found her very interesting in as much as she got so tuned in with my body she would anticipate my movements - like trying to get a tiny movement when they just go bigger and bigger!. No excuse , at all, this was the beginning of finding an excellent oseopath named Emily. It was the only thing I could find when trying to explain tipping point. You are right in that I have also done head down,in a more relaxed outline with Isabella -  which has fitted in well with the osteopath. 

NH "disengagement: and "engagement" of the quarters , to my perception, are a continuum. If the HQ goes out to one side, and the power goes , but if the hind steps deeper under then it is more engaged. I might be wrong? The walking round the cone made it easier to find that pivot point .

Hiya Lynsey -  Not sure how you would ride a horse without using neg R !!

It kind of evolves into this.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

( Caesar is a Tennessee walking horse who I kindly had the pleasure to ride -  he is not mine so please only comment on me!!)

[ash]

Sorry Hilary, I can't see the vid as it says it is private. 

[ash]

I think what I find slightly frustrating is that when I walk it through myself, then yes, 98% of the time, I can feel the pivot point, and the step back feels natural. But that is because I am relaxed and consciously looking for the pivot point.

With the horses in the vids i have seen so far (again not a criticism aimed at anybody at all), all the bits leading up to the pivot point and step back have generally been tense, wtih some resistance in the horse.  I too would like to see the movements broken down much, much more, and the tensions eliminated, so it is more the case that the horse 'finds' the pivot for themselves, rather than being walked into it by the handler.

It is for this reason that i am slightly in two minds about disengagement, because i do believe that in taking the horses hind end power away, we have the potential to make him feel vulnerable, anxious and tense.  That is why it is something I would like to see the horse being relaxed enough to 'feel' on his own.

Sorry, that makes sense to me, but probably to no one else! 

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Hiya Lynsey -  Not sure how you would ride a horse without using neg R !!

Me neither!! That's why I love it when folks explore it more so that I can learn from them... In the beginning with Alex it was as much +R as possible but it was all about learning the rules of  behaviour science and the behaviours were targeting and head down etc so I couldn't wait until this wonderful, mostly +R work was going to carry over to riding. But...from everything I've seen in the last few years it's a whole lot of pressure and release. And don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying this is wrong at all and in fact might be the best way for the horse...it's just that I wanted to see a more +R route explored.

And I do keep in mind that nothing we do with our horses is pure -R because just showing up at the barn puts some pressure on them...??? And I use -R all the time just to get by with riding and handling but I'm always thinking about how to include more +R for teaching any given behaviour. Sometimes more for curiousity and fun than necessity! And maybe this is a topic for another thread but I've been thinking a lot lately not just about the practicality of using pressure and release but even if that is actually a better way for the horse if our basic communication system is first taught with +R....??? One of the reasons I wonder this is that sometimes I feel I have better results when I just leave the click and treat out of the session and rely on very gentle pressure, response restriction, prompting etc. I wonder if it's actually clearer for my horse because they feel more guided...??...so they feel they are getting more information from me...?? And getting the right answer has become rewarding in itself...???

One example for me is when I work with my mare and I'm teaching her something and she's on a high rate of reinforcement she'll nicker everytime she here's the click. It's just too cute and wonderful and I know other folks also have had that experience with their horses. Anyhoo, sometimes when I'm working on something when I'm riding my mare...maybe counted walk or shoulder in or walk-trot transitions etc (in other words, stuff she knows and is work and I am NOT clicking and treating) then a funny thing happens - I get to a point where I want to give her a break and so I say 'gooood' (I don't click) and drop the rein and will give her a treat when she stops - well... she nickers when she stops! I love this because I think it means she's in a very good mental place...??? So even though we worked a long time with lots of little pressure and releases (or lots of -R), she's still a very engaged and happy girl. Oh and then one time she did this gorgeous shoulder in slow walk and her back came up and she had energy and it felt like a million bucks so I clicked but she didn't stop for the click! She just kept walking a little bit!!! I was stunned because there was no way she didn't hear it and she ALWAYS stops for the click. Now I know one experience like that is not a science experiment... but it really got me thinking about how we can really know what's rewarding to them. And this is very important to me because I want to ask a lot physically from my horse and I would love if I could build the work in such a way that they actually enjoy it - because I'm going to ask!! I'm going to ride Grand Prix dammit!!! 

Or sometimes I wonder if I was just better at using +R, that would be the preferred route for my horse. And why it feels better sometimes when I leave out the click and treat is because my timing is frustrating my horse but my pressure and release is clearer....ooooh....pony tail way to tight....

[Lyndsey Lewis]

With the horses in the vids i have seen so far (again not a criticism aimed at anybody at all), all the bits leading up to the pivot point and step back have generally been tense, wtih some resistance in the horse.  I too would like to see the movements broken down much, much more, and the tensions eliminated, so it is more the case that the horse 'finds' the pivot for themselves, rather than being walked into it by the handler.

It is for this reason that i am slightly in two minds about disengagement, because i do believe that in taking the horses hind end power away, we have the potential to make him feel vulnerable, anxious and tense.  That is why it is something I would like to see the horse being relaxed enough to 'feel' on his own.

Sorry, that makes sense to me, but probably to no one else! 

  Well worded! I agree!! Makes really good sense to me but I just wasn't able to explain it as well...

It seems to me the essence of +R is all about working without unnecessary tension or bracing. The other part was sometimes it looked like the disengagement and backing was used as a kind of correction...?? Which is GOOD if you need to use it to keep your horse safe and with you in a difficult situation but I don't like it in a training situation.

[Lyndsey Lewis]

I'd love to see the video Hilary...are you able to un-private it??

[hilary]

Sorry - try that . PS He was quite portly in the tummy region!

[Trudi]

  brilliant discussion.

Firstly I'll admit to defeat regarding using only +ve reinforcement to train  I applaud all those that can and look forward to them sharing the results but I don't think I have enough hours left in my life to truly get anywhere with pure +ve. Now that isn't to say I will take the path of least resistance and start 'whipping' them into shape but I have started a decision process during which I'm looking at each cue/aid/direction and deciding if (by my rules  ) the aversive is acceptable or not. I'm sure I may change my mind going forwards but then that is the organic nature of this.

Regarding the disengagement of the hip well I don't actually get the term disengagement of the hip, it's more a disengagement of forward movement (trying to keep that hip under and with you) and I learned it years ago when I had a WB who would often panic rear, I used it as a kind of brain disengagement much like one may use lateral work to get a horse to block out the spooky corner then we used the turn around the forehand into backing as a moment to regain ourselves and start off anew.  Now I like to think it's more refined and together.

The gymnastic appeal of this for me is in the fluidity. The sweep around into the reinback is one movement and then a lowered head into reinback produces 'something' out of what was 'nothing' and the horse is under himself again and then off with a regained balance (body and mind). Good gymnastic movement is just that and you need the eye to see it and improve upon it, it isn't about an automatic response it's about two minds realising that they have taken one step too many and taking a re-balance before setting off again 

So yes it's aversive to ask him to turn and back but is it less aversive to take a tug and say stop, or let go the rope and let him stand on it and brake himself? Is it not aversive to bring him up from the field in a headcollar, shouldn't I open the gate and see where he goes and follow? Should I never take him away from his buddies to work and the aversive threat that offers him daily? These are all scenarios I have considered and decided that if I want to have horses as part of my life I have to accept inperfection too.

This isn't aimed at anyone, just where I am right now. I am always aware that when one posts thoughts on tricky subjects or videos to show your work, that half of the viewers will laugh at you for being too soft and the other half will castigate you for being heavy handed  such is life. It is only .yourself you have to be true to, .yourself and .your horse.

off to see if I can watch Hilary's vid.

[hilary]

What I do know, is that Ben and Lottie both break into the arena ( they undo the catch if I dont rope it shut). Callisto and Isabella havent learnt that yet.( but would if they could).

Ben has had loads of neg reinforcement  - but until I made a pact with him that I wouldn't, as a general , up the pressure, he would never never have broken in! I still use neg reinforcement but perhaps my intent has changed! he also nickers now which he never used to do.out


I like the phrase organic nature   -  will remember that one!