withholding the click

[Trudi]

Well I've been busy with my two and every day there is something that I think ummm, don't know the answer to that but usually by the time I get on to the computer it has left my head  so today I made a big effort and so here is today's numpty question.

It's easier if I use today's work as an example so...lunging Moo (well it's between in-hand and lunging distance from him) and CTing the trot tranny, ie to begin if he even speeded the walk up or changed in any way he got the CT but now on day three of this work it's a CT when he actually trots.
OK so far he is obliging (even though it was baking hot today) and willingly trots but now I want to up the stakes a bit and only reward the 'good' trannies as in the ones that are energetic and have purpose. So I started with CTing the 'dull' trannies at the start and then moved on to CTing only the better ones but tbh the boy looked a little crestfallen as if he had done something wrong 
So should I NOT begin the new day with recapping and just move on to the new 'phase' of trot tranny I expect? This is what I feel I should do because it's just like withholding something from him and creating -ve punishment.

Am I moving to fast? Should I take longer to establish the basic tranny before trying to improve it.

I think I may have answered this myself just by having to take time out and write it down  but I'd still like to hear other perspectives and from all sides of the CT world, please 

[issywizz]

I think you do know the answer  its amazing how many things we do know the answer to by the time we have written down the question 

I think Ben always begins a new lesson with a recap of the earlier stuff and that certainly makes sense to me.

As a slight aside,why did you choose to improve the tranny first before working on building up the trot?

[Lyndsey Lewis]

OK so far he is obliging (even though it was baking hot today) and willingly trots but now I want to up the stakes a bit and only reward the 'good' trannies as in the ones that are energetic and have purpose. So I started with CTing the 'dull' trannies at the start and then moved on to CTing only the better ones but tbh the boy looked a little crestfallen as if he had done something wrong 
So should I NOT begin the new day with recapping and just move on to the new 'phase' of trot tranny I expect? This is what I feel I should do because it's just like withholding something from him and creating -ve punishment.

Oh I also have trouble with this part of upping the criteria. I think it's one of the trickiest pieces for me and often has me thinking I should quit horses and take up piano!! 

But for what it's worth, two things come to mind for me...one is the enviroment...when we want to prompt, lure, capture etc the better we can set up the environment the eaiser it will be for them to get it. You said it was baking hot which would make it harder for him...?? So my suggestion would be to work when it's cooler and he's fresher...at least on this particular behaviour. Also if there is a place in the circle where he naturally has a wee bit more energy like heading towards the barn instead of away...?...then that's a better place to ask.

The other thing I would suggest is clicking really early...(maybe you are doing that already..??). So really don't care about trot steps but the actual attitude to the cue...if that makes sense. It's like clicking for THINKING about trotting. This might make him more enthusiastic given that it's less work in the heat...??...and it might mean he'll be on a higher rate of reinforcement while he's getting the concept of more energy in the transition...???

I did a fun thing to get more forward thinking and more energy that you might like to try. I keep a large feed bucket in the ring and I made the bucket VERY appetitive to my horses by playing games with it (put your foot in) and also I throw treats in it when I'm done with a session as sort of an end of session marker but I also just use it for a station to rest and eat...I might as a jackpot throw an apple in it. But I also use it as a lure. So I put a handful of treats in it and they are standing with me and they see the treats but I don't let them have them...or maybe one quick bite...and then we head off on the circle and as they come around that part of the circle and the bucket is out in front of them (I'm lunging at this point), I can ask for more energy and they GO because they are headed to the bucket. So I get the behaviour (more go/more energy) and I 'click' but I don't have to stop them and treat them because their reward is to go to the bucket and eat the treats in the bucket. Works great. One small complication is that they can get 'bucket brain'... ...that is, they ONLY want to go to the bucket and they don't want to leave it....so I also set up 4 buckets in the corners of the ring to use...but now I'll start writing a small bucket novel....

But I really love buckets! I've had so much fun with them over the years and found no end of use for them. I probably use them a bit they way AK uses mats...?? They represent fun, safety, food etc. and have been the most helpful prompt for getting more energy.

[Trudi]

  thanks both, I'm just off to step class and I'll reply properly when I get back but Lyndsey yes you are right I was working on the trannies to get the 'intention' right, more up and energy than pancake like  he is a very forward horse and I've spent years slowing it down but there's a difference between slow and flat  I blame IW for making me give up my whip 

[Lyndsey Lewis]

he is a very forward horse and I've spent years slowing it down but there's a difference between slow and flat  I blame IW for making me give up my whip 

  I hear  you!!!! I remember the good ol' days when the whip did all my work!! 

[Trudi]

Oh I also have trouble with this part of upping the criteria. I think it's one of the trickiest pieces for me and often has me thinking I should quit horses and take up piano!! 

perhaps I should take up the piano again then  I'm glad it's not just me then Lyndsey.

Yes good points about environment, I'm usually pretty good at setting things up for success but I imagine I could still improve, it's unseasonably hot for this time of year and with their winter coats not fully shed it's pretty warm even first thing  mustn't complain though as it's lovely to see the sun.

Yes I'm clicking quite early but I'm always aware that I could improve my timing so I'll try to be more precise (I watched your vid, think it was you,  with the lovely palamino working on energy in the trannies??)

I am a bit lost with Moo without the whip because a lifted whip end meant up a pace and a lifted hand meant down a pace so he's learning a new set of rules.

@ IW yes I think I do have an answer but think probably there are many  so right now I'm going to try one which will be a recap using the mat at liberty and then we'll move to the lunge to address the tranny energy. I'll let you know if it works or is a disaster.

[Trudi]

This mornings session went quite well, started by cooling him down with a shower before we started work!

First to the mat for some 'easy' rewards and I was really pleased with his treat taking/preparation but I'll write that up on my blog later.

Then on to some trot warm up and I decided to ask 'down' then trot for this so that there was no confusion between the trot trannies later when I was intending to click for the 'intent'. I'm only using voice aids at the mo because I want to tie it in with the ridden work I'm doing which is voice cued for the moment.

I was quite pleased with the work, little bit untidy on my part and I hate my voice but it doesn't make sense without the sound on.

Polite discussion very much encouraged  please 

moo ct trot tranny.wmv

[issywizz]

Its loading atm but I was reading something about when to add voice cues last night which may be of interest.
Basically from what I can gather you shouldnt add a voice cue until the response is established as you want it,the reason why is because if you do it before then the voice cue will be for that rather than what you want.
An example ; training the horse to head lower, your initial cue would be either following a target or light touch on the poll or freeshaping if you are into that ( Im not patient enough yet  ) then when the horse lowers nicely you add in the verbal cue and phase out the target/touch cue.
if you start with the verbal cue or add it too early it will mean whatever the horse gives at that point,so for example if the horse is still bobbing up and down at that point rather than relaxing with the head down that will be what your verbal cue is asking for.

This could explain why you are finding it hard to get a better tranny-you have put the tranny you got originally on the verbal cue so that is what you get.
Does that make sense? 

[Trudi]

I understand what you mean, would need to think about that some more but tbh if I think/read/beat myself up any more about this I will end up giving the boys away and buying that piano  I've found quite a happy place right now and I so need to keep the weight off them both that I need a way forward to some activity.

[issywizz]

 

Trudi,hnestly that one really isnt that bad 

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Oh so much to LOVE here! Just the quality of the video. It's so refreshing to have the video and sound so nice and clear so I can really see what's happening so thanks for that!

And I love that he grunts/nickers towards the end...too cute!!!

Most of all though I love the way you work. Really nice to see. You look really consistant and clear with him and he just looks so happy and so engaged. Really makes for nice viewing! And inspires me!

I have a couple of questions about where he's at with this exercise. Is he at the point where you are not clicking if he offers the behaviour and you haven't asked for it...?? In other words, are you trying to get it under stimulus control and only have him trot if you say trot?

If yes, then that makes sense to me that you are cueing the trot with the word...in other words, he knows already clearly enough that the word trot means trot...???

In all the 'rules' with behaviour science, it seems that there are contradictory ones around when to add a cue. One rule says add the cue when you are about 80% sure that you'll get the behaviour...?? But another rule says don't add the cue until you have the goal behaviour...well this just confuses me even though I can see both ways.

I've even read that we need to transfer the cue once we have the final behaviour because the first cue will be associated with the poorer performance...???

At  one of the Karen Pryor seminars I went to on 'Getting Behaviour on Cue', she would click for cue recognition! She took a dog from the audience and was teaching it to sit (it was a wild good dog and just wanted to jump on her - perfect for a demo). Anyway, she first just clicked for sitting after holding the treat above it's head so it would sit (prompting), then she added the cue AS it sat (and it was a full sit) but then after doing that a few times she wanted to test her cue...so she gave the cue to sit and as soon as the dog indicated that it understood the cue and just STARTED to sit, she clicked and treated. She said she was clicking for cue recognition. Then she gradually delayed the click and treat after cueing the sit until the dog had fully sat. Make sense? Anyhow, what I took away from that example was it doesn't matter if we use the same cue as we refine the behaviour cause we can just ever so slightly withhold the click until the behaviour is closer to our goal.

I don't know if it's relevant here but from watching your video, this looks to me the way Karen Pryor would do it...

By the way I think his energy is fantastic! And from watching you do this and thinking ahead, I can see that you'll get to the point where you won't click and treat every time and then hardly at all and then at THAT stage, maybe just click for the exceptional transitions...??? I'm still trying to figure out this progression with my guys so I'll be really interested to see how you do it.

Thanks again! I think this is a really good example! I hope you keep showing us the progress!

Love your boy by the way! Just 

[issywizz]

  Nice post though Lyndsey 
I love his little whickers too,soo cute 

[hilary]

Nice vid , and energy too.  I echo Lynseys comments.

I too get confused about cues -  because how often do we have "finished" behaviour.  ( This is where you end up having discussions where some people say that is just a trick, whereas an "aid" is continually refinable). We want our trot work to improve and improve

And once you are sitting on the horse  -  you will use your body ( be it micromovements so they become cues)

[Trudi]

Thanks for your lovely words Lyndsey, not sure they are deserved  but he is such a different boy these days (it's been a looong time in the making mind) and it makes it all worth while.

I totally understood what you were explaining re the Karen Prior thing and that is what I'm aiming to do (even if some of the behaviourists wouldn't agree) firstly establish that the pace of trot is being asked for with a vocal cue 'trot', I started this last week while we were playing at liberty and he was catching me up in trot (I ran ahead and called trot and when he did I CT'd) and so this is the general progression towards having a good forwards trot on each tranny and later I could/will/might add in 'up' or 'down' so that he knows if it's a stretchy down trot or an up and more collected trot....well that's the plan or something like.

It's tricky because he's a re-start not a newbie so has much behavioural baggage  much of it from me  and he's been a lot slower than Chapiro at picking it up, feels like we've turned a bit of a corner though.

So true about the finished Hilary