couple of CT questions

[shoveltrash]

ok, after days & days of bad weather & no horsey time - my head is spinning from all the inner debates i've been having in my head regarding CT

i'm taking the plunge.  today i started both my 6y/o ridden horse, and my 10 mo old colt......TARGET TRAINING .
i really need to get a better target - the blue plastic dog bowl just isn't very fashionable


so.

CT
i understand that setting it up for the horse, so that the horse KNOWS when he is having a *CT session* is valuable.  and i think i've wrapped my head around how to go about doing this.  but, what do you do when/if your horse offers behaviors when NOT in CT session?  does it decrease the CT value for the horse?  is it unfair to the horse?

and.

how do you go about building on target training? sorry, dummy question (which will probably be more clear for me when i get my Ben Hart book!).
what are things you can do with it, other than throwing the target for the horse to go to?  we did this today, and were very successful .  i'd LOVE to know more things to do! 
but HOW does this translate to ridden work????
i can see how it would be very beneficial for ground work, in-hand, etc.  in fact my horse almost always offers sideways as a default behavior when we do groundwork , based on prior CT done in the past .  what a powerful tool!

lastly,
another dummy question:
when your horse is at liberty, and is investigating YOU for possible rewards - what do you do? i ignored it today, but i've always been keen to keep a 1000+lb animal OUT of my personal space, not something i like to encourage.  i don't want to apply pressure to move him away, right?
treat delivery today was fab, helped by advice read here on EE .  i extended my arm out to where i wanted them to take the treat.  good result.
but it didn't seem to transfer to keeping out of my personal space 
cue big horse sniffing my hair, face, nibbling here and there



really looking forward to answers & feedback!
a big *THANK YOU* in advance 

[SueWhitmore]

I am a beginner too! But I think everyone else is away this weekend, it's deathly quiet everywhere. 

You will find it a *lot* easier when you get the book. But, target training - I'll take a pic of mine tomorrow for you - is not a remote target, at least to start with, and like you, I'm at the very beginning - but something on the end of a stick. (Sarah uses a teddy bear!  ) You don't throw the target, you hold it. So your first target training is to get the horse to turn its head away from you and as soon as it touches the target, you click. You wear a bum bag (fanny pack) on your front. Ben Hart suggest one with zips, because then you can let the horse investigate it, but it can't get the treats from "mugging". You make a deliberate move, after the click, and this is the best thing, it can be quite a long time after, certainly long enough for a fumble fingers like me to get organised, to get the treat out of the bag, and pass it to the horse while the head is turned away. If it mugs - that is, tries to get ungiven, you just ignore it and it doesn't get, until its head is away, even if the first couple of times you have to let it follow your hand away from you.

But it is quite stunning how quickly they get it - and if you are too slow getting the treat, they touch the target again rather than trying to get the treat. If you're quick and focussed, you can click again any touch on the target. I found it worked in about 1 minute flat, and most amazingly, since I do give my horses treats, randomly, when I feel like it, and Uranio almost always just before I leave, they started turning their heads slightly away to receive any unclicked treat. So they have become more polite, not less.

The idea is that you just don't reward unwanted behaviour, so while you do let them investigate, they get nothing out of it, but as soon as their head is away, well, then they can have a treat. Horses are pretty smart, so they will soon offer more wanted behaviour than unwanted. Another Ben Hart tip is to have more than one sort of treat, because horses get bored with too much of the same stuff when they have to work for it, even treats, or actually, especially treats. Just like for us, where one cream cake is lovely, two is almost too much but you can force yourself (well I can ) but a dozen would be torture.

Any way, hope this helps and it is going to be fun doing this at the same time.

[issywizz]

 

Hi Trish,
Totally agree with Sue re the target, although you can use anything and in fact I used a cone to begin with,but something softish on the end of a stick gives you better control over where it is and allows you to guide the horse into more interesting and useful movement.

Ref stuff offered when you arent doing CT,its quite important that the horse understand when to offer stuff and when not to which is why Ben says to only have the bumbag on when you approach the horse to do CT work.
Otherwise you can potentially end up having a horse who is trying to get rewarded constantly which can mean hes not relaxed cos he doesnt know whats required.
Dont forget that the click is only a tool to mark behaviour that you want to catch so outside of a session you can still reward stuff and treat if you want to the same way you have done previously.

You need to decide what it is you want to gain from doing CT and then try and write yourself some form of plan to get from A ( where you are now) to B ( that end result), this is different for each of us and each horse and different times in our journey.
Personally I am using it as a tool to help me to motivate B,the general idea is to replace the 'make' provided by the whip/spur by a 'want' created by CT work.
But I cant answer that question for you because you need to know what it is you want to achieve.

CT work, for me, is more about the psychological effects on the horse in teaching him how to learn and how to be confident to offer things rather than teaching tricks but others like some of the trick training.

At first I didnt get it,I was like, " what the heck do I want my horse to pick up a cone for?"  but the targetting stuff in the beginning is simply teaching the horse the 'rules' and how to work out how to get the reward.

Ref mugging, the two main reasons for mugging are 1) its normal for a horse to go direct to his food so most horses will investigate this possibility, in this case you do need to simply ignore them and the fact that their actions are not rewarded should make them try something else.
Obviously keep yourself safe and move yourself away if they are nipping and if things did get bad its useful to do it over a fence/stable door until this behaviour is sorted as it is really important not to punish them for this.
2) if you are asking for too much or not rewarding often enough or your timing isnt good they may get frustrated and start mugging,in this case along with ignoring it you need to address what it is that is causing the frustration.

In general the reach to bumbag should begin with taking about 1-2 seconds from the click and dont bring the variable schedule in too quickly.

[issywizz]

Ps Trish,get some vid,its really important to see his responses to what you are doing and you miss a lot when you are up close working with them. 

[Trudi]

  good news that you're giving this a go Trish it will bring big differences for you I'm sure even though you already have a great relationship with Nico, it will be very interesting to see the differences between him and your colt.

Whilst I do appreciate that following one method is good for some and so Sarah and Sue follow Ben's I think it's great that you can actually work some of this stuff out for yourself going back to Karen Pryor and before that to Skinner and contempories there is well documented stuff out there and you can research forever  on the other hand I suppose following someone like Ben means that you can avoid all that research and just get straight into a proven method.

Unlike Sarah I am always prepared for a click  so whilst sometimes a bum bag is worn ('cos it's too hot to wear a jacket) sometimes not, maybe I'll regret this and change my mind but it's just how I feel, it's like saying to your child 'I only expect good behaviour to happen when we're in the kitchen but you can offer the best behaviour in the lounge and I won't praise you' just mho.

Agree about the nose in your space  the disinterested look is very trainable and I generally start every session with that because they both see it as an easy one and so I can give some high frequency treating to start on a good note. Moo is needing a little help in taking the treat gently especially important as I would like ultimately to treat 'on the go' so to speak.

The big thing is to treat as an individual and build plans that change daily oh and to take vid to 'see' things that you can't when you're on top of the situation.

[shoveltrash]

it IS quiet around here!

i should clarify - i've done target training before, and also CT'd the 'polite head away from me' behavior for treat delivery.  to this day (with no CT reinforcement 2+ years after teaching it), Nico still turns his head away from me politely for treats when i hold my hand out.  amazing.  THAT is why i'm re-investigating this.  talk about being impressed with a training tool!  the few behaviors i spent time clicking/rewarding when he was 4 really stuck.  canter cue was one of them.  theses things i taught have never gone away, and Nico has always had a very positive "ok let's do it" attitude too.

You need to decide what it is you want to gain from doing CT and then try and write yourself some form of plan to get from A ( where you are now) to B ( that end result), this is different for each of us and each horse and different times in our journey.

but that's what i don't KNOW .  why i asked this in the original post: "how do you go about building on target training? " and "HOW does this translate to ridden work????"

i feel like i'm missing too many pieces of the puzzle to be able to formulate a *grand plan*.  
'would be really REALLY helpful to know what other's plans are! even if the goals may not be the same!
our contact issue is my bugaboo, my one 'aversive' for my horse.  we worked it out at walk & trot, but not canter.  trot is still in progress though. i try 'half halts' to help rebalance, and the next thing you know i'm getting stronger & stronger with them .  and this is where i truly cannot see the connection -- how will it help?  i'm going on blind faith, and will see where we end up i suppose.

after watching you vid Sarah, i saw the benefits of something on a stick, to be able to 'conduct' movement .
and i do need to video us! 'll see about doing that today , altho i'm on 48 call to the hospital this weekend , so no telling.

Sue having more than one sort of treat makes perfect sense .  i've got to figure out what to use!  feed, i get it spilled everywhere .  horse cookies - i fear my boys will blow up with fat!  perhaps slicing little bits of carrot........
nice to know i'm not alone beginning this stuff
and also great advice re the mugging behavior
thanks for the replies

[issywizz]

good news that you're giving this a go Trish it will bring big differences for you I'm sure even though you already have a great relationship with Nico, it will be very interesting to see the differences between him and your colt.



Unlike Sarah I am always prepared for a click  so whilst sometimes a bum bag is worn ('cos it's too hot to wear a jacket) sometimes not, maybe I'll regret this and change my mind but it's just how I feel, it's like saying to your child 'I only expect good behaviour to happen when we're in the kitchen but you can offer the best behaviour in the lounge and I won't praise you' just mho.



The big thing is to treat as an individual and build plans that change daily oh and to take vid to 'see' things that you can't when you're on top of the situation.

Trudi, dont forget the click is only the marker,you can use praise and reward any time without it being CT time. Also I will actually use a tongue click at another time if I really want to mark and reward something,not sure if that fits with Bens theory actually but Im greedy and like to have the best of both worlds 

Trish, the whole point of ct for me is that the click is a *marker* to precisely capture whatever it is you want and the reward is a motivator to replace escalating pressure.
So basically you work the other way round and thats what people find difficult.
Ie; traditional way to teach SI would be to use the bridle/halter to position and then *add pressure as needed* and the stick to position and then *add pressure as needed*
With CT work you can still cue the horse ,in fact you could still use a bridle and a whip if they had never been used to add pressure, but as they probably have you would need to do it without until the horse understands the new relationship which doesnt add pressure  and then you could ,if needed, bring such things back in slowly.
But the motivation comes *after* the movement which is why you need to train the horse how CT works using simple stuff first.

When thats established then you can cue the horse in various ways ( this bit requires a little imagination) and he will offer stuff and you mark what you need *always being careful not to push too fast or ask for too much * as that creates confusion.

Anyway so using the SI example you would use your hand to cue the body position and maybe the target ( or a headcollar if the particular horse doesnt consider one aversive) to cue the head the difference is simply that a cue doesnt *make* the horse do anything,it *asks* and then you wait and click to mark and treat to motivate.

The important thing is breaking anything down into tiny achievable steps.

And working with the horse loose is useful as it means he is genuinely able to give unhindered feedback.

I would suggest ref the contact that perhaps the beginning could be to take away all the tack and work on getting him to balance himself without it-in hand first and then ridden ,using transitions perhaps,maybe a little SI, but also working on your own feel and balance and seeing if he can come to meet you.
Just an idea. 
Perhaps carry on hacking at the same time if you are concerned about his fitness.

[SueWhitmore]

Just also like to reply to Trudi - hope you don't mind, Shoveltrash! Trudi, for me, it is not that I am slavishly following Ben Hart, it is just that I have enormous difficulty *getting started* with new things. I always assume that I don't know how to do anything - I have very little confidence in my own ability as a trainer. Just as with riding, learning and teaching, the method I use involves absolutely precise instructions, I need to have the starting point, the tiny things, spelled out to me in unambiguous detail. Otherwise I just don't know where to start. Once I've started, I have a really steep learning curve and I work most things out for myself. It seems that my whole "horse-life" I've been inadvertently using these principals, but not really understanding what I am doing. So it is a bit of an "ah ha" with me. You know how I always say "I'm useless, my horses *help* me, they are kind *to* me, otherwise I couldn't cope" - well, I think that is free shaped behaviour.

Very early in my "horse life" (it started properly at 19) I was judging Pony Club classes at one of the posh London shows - Brockwell Park I think. I got talking to a very accomplished rider, about my age, who was judging, I think, show hunters. I said to her, "You know how people always say you must never let a horse win a battle, well I don't think that is true, do you?" She said, "Oh God, no, I spend half my life saying 'Please horsey, nice horsey.'"  Because I really admired her ability, her words gave me permission to carry on following my instincts, which were to avoid confrontation and work round issues. Very, very basic, but in that era (the late 70s), very important to me and also quite controversial.

What I am learning now is how to give structure to what I do, and achieve objectives. Because I do have issues, different ones, with almost every horse. I haven't dealt with most of them, so not too many poison cues, but now I HAVE A PLAN. 

[Trudi]

  sorry Sarah thought you were implying that you could only CT if you had a bum bag on  I start and finish 'formal' sessions on the mat and give a very definite end signal so they know it's finished .

Sue I wasn't suggesting for one minute that you were slavishly following Ben  although by all accounts he's well worth following  it's more that I do get a bit fed up with the 'so and so' says stuff and prefer a 'well imo having tried this I think so and so's way being this is a good one' . I know I blather on about Hilary but she comes in with lovely tales of experience and how it might apply to an Alex Kurland training situation and like you she isn't slavishly following anyone.

I'm not having a go in any way or at anyone just that I learn differently perhaps or that I just haven't found the person to follow yet 

[SueWhitmore]

I'm not having a go in any way or at anyone just that I learn differently perhaps or that I just haven't found the person to follow yet 

I didn't for one moment think you were "having a go".  I was just trying to explain why that particular book was so useful to me. You will never find anyone to "follow". You need to follow your instincts and use any techniques that are useful and chime with your own ethical construct. This is why I am so useless as a horse trainer. I have never felt able to insist on any behaviour or action that wasn't strictly necessary for safety or welfare.

[issywizz]

Thats a good idea Trudi,I think I should probably do that ( the signal thing) 

[Pikku Karhu]

Great to hear you're coming back to clicker training Trish!   I'm looking forward to hearing about your journey.

Sticking my head out to the block here, but while I think it's great to read and learn widely and seek inspiration and knowledge from many sources - I do too - there are some fundamental principles that are different in the different "schools" of clicker training - it's a bit like French vs German in classical!   And I think that while you can learn loads from both sides, with some of the fundamentals you should stick with one or the other, or risk confusing your horse... for example, those of us who have trained with Alex K, every click means a treat; Ben Hart uses "treatless clicks" as bridging signals. Alex also uses bridging signals, such as verbal praise - I use Gooood, or Ahhhhh - but a click is never a bridge, it's always followed by a treat. Ben uses clicker as a tool that is only used in dedicated sessions (unless I've misunderstood?), for Alex it's a tool that is incorporated into everything you do (which does NOT mean you click the same little things forever, nor does it produce a horse who cannot relax/is forever offering its full repertoire - not if you go about it the right way!). Both methods can produce beautiful results! I think like with all training, you can - and should - borrow tools and ideas and take inspiration from various sources and there aren't always a right and a wrong between different schools - many roads lead to Rome, and all that. There is much common ground, too, and much to be learned from both sides. However with some of the more fundamental principles, it's good to be clear exactly what is different between them, why the different schools have different approaches, and why you would want to choose one or the other for this particular trainer, and this particular horse. To me it's not a question of slavishly following one trainer or another, it's about being clear on those fundamental principles of different methods/schools of training.

My fundamental principles with clicker training are slightly different from Ben Hart's, so my answer to some of your questions would be slightly different from what you will get from him - which is why I don't want to offer advice to those who train with him, or using his methods, as it would be truly confusing. For example, when you ask about when the horse offers good things outside the clicker training sessions, will not clicking them decrease the value of c/t, and be unfair to the horse - my answers would be yes it will decrease the value of it, and yes it is unfair - BUT these are not the only right answers, they are only the right answers if you've chosen the same fundamental principles as I have... The comparison with the classical schools come to my mind again - you wouldn't want to go and tell Germanist that they need to start with flexions in halt and seek balance before movement... nor a French follower that they need to go forward, forward, forward and find the swinging back before anything else. Well you could if you're Lippa or IW and just want to argue for the sake of it    ... but I don't think it's my place to tell people they've chosen a wrong road to Rome!

Let's all have a party in Rome when we get there..  

(Modified to correct a silly typo!)

[lisaNW]

So glad you wrote that post PK! You said what I was wanting to say but couldn't face composing, LOL! (Can you beleive I'm sick with a tummy bug today...arrgghh!!).

[Pikku Karhu]

So glad you wrote that post PK! You said what I was wanting to say but couldn't face composing, LOL! (Can you beleive I'm sick with a tummy bug today...arrgghh!!).

The lengths some folks go to, just to get away from composing a reply.... 

No seriously - hope you feel better soon Lisa! 

[VR]

I start and finish 'formal' sessions on the mat and give a very definite end signal so they know it's finished .

When you say you give a signal ... as in what, what do you do to signal it? I understand what you mean and think that it is a very good idea, something that I don't currently do but would be keen to introduce, especially as pone is starting out clicker training and we only do very brief target training sessions at the mo. Just not quite sure what sort of signal to give or how?  I mean, do I just turn to him and say "clicker time" before each session or what??