Target training: SO what if your pony tries to EAT the target?!

[VR]

I have a very immature, coltish 4 year old (gelding!) who is very “mouthy” and investigates everything with his lips/teeth first He isn’t a biter though I should stress, he isn’t nippy, he just likes to explore things with his lips. I am currently trying to reinforce the idea, through clicker training, that having your feet picked up and touched is not stressful and there is no need to panic.

After working on this for just 5 mins a few days a week for the last one or two, he is getting so much better with his feet, we are almost there with his front legs, back legs are better, no snatching anymore but he is still tense/anxious when handling those so still a way to go yet. I am finding that breaking it down into incy wincy steps seems to be the way forward for us. It did however occur to me this morning that we have to repeat a few of these steps each time I try to handle the back feet, it’s like we almost go back to square one each time and I started to wonder if he is just learning through repetition rather than because he is actually understanding the clicker? So I decided it wouldn’t harm to go back a step and reinforce the basis of clicker by refreshing our target training.

Now the problem is, that I introduce the target, a JP short Endostick (a ping pong ball on a jumping whip for those who haven’t seen it) he looks at it – I click he muzzles it next time – I click and then next time he tries to eat it/grab is with his lips/suck it! So working on the basis that I’m just praising what I want and ignoring what I don’t, I just ignore this behaviour, remove the target and then reintroduce it, but then it seems to be a case of “well if I can’t put it in my mouth then I don’t want it” and he just turns his head the other way and ignores me! As he isn’t spooky I did try then just touching the end of his nose with the ball and clicking when this made contact which did prick his interest a little again but then when I offered it to him again the next time he tried to grab it with his lips again!

Any ideas, thoughts or suggestions on any of the above greatly appreciated 

[hilary]

You could try changing the target to something he cant really chew -  like a large plastic coke bottle. And then find an object that he could easily pick up, and teach him to retrieve ( very useful if you drop something while riding !!). Then he can play frisbee!
ONe guy (Allen Pogue) often uses a baseball cap -  quite sot, bt has a stiffer peak they can get hold of. Then ONLY reward when he pciks up what you want ( and dont laugh when he tries to take a friends hat off her head!!).

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Now the problem is, that I introduce the target, a JP short Endostick (a ping pong ball on a jumping whip for those who haven’t seen it) he looks at it – I click he muzzles it next time – I click and then next time he tries to eat it/grab is with his lips/suck it! So working on the basis that I’m just praising what I want and ignoring what I don’t, I just ignore this behaviour, remove the target and then reintroduce it, but then it seems to be a case of “well if I can’t put it in my mouth then I don’t want it” and he just turns his head the other way and ignores me! As he isn’t spooky I did try then just touching the end of his nose with the ball and clicking when this made contact which did prick his interest a little again but then when I offered it to him again the next time he tried to grab it with his lips again!

Any ideas, thoughts or suggestions on any of the above greatly appreciated 

Try clicking sooner! Be very quick to click BEFORE he can open his mouth. If this means sometimes you click and he hasn't touched it, doesn't matter. Taking the target away is tricky and can be quite punishing so you have to be careful here. You might for a while have the behaviour be 'put your nose within 6 inches of the target' and then you can click well before he opens his mouth. You can also have him follow the target (go for a little walk) being sure to click for following and not biting.

If you really get into the game, you can think about teaching him to mouth it...get it on cue and have two separate cues, one for touching and one for mouthing. If we eventually want them to pick up our whip or glove when we are out on the trail, we never want to punish mouthing an object. Just try and  manage it for now or start teaching him the difference between touch and mouth. I know it's tricky. I've been very humbled by some sweet horses who took my whole hand into their mouth! But using a small container to feed with can help here.

Also just a note on feet...I like to use more of a classical conditioning approach to feet. That is, I don't click...I just make feet handling a lovely time. I put up a hay net with choice hay and have a feed bucket set up high so they don't have to drop their heads to the floor then I toss treats in the bucket for staying calm while I touch everywhere. Often the biggest issue with feet is they don't want their legs and feet touched. Once they LOVE you to touch their legs and feet (because when you do that, the vending machine produces) they are usually better about letting the foot be picked up. I think it's kind of fussy clicking and treating for picking up the foot etc...not that is can't be done but it's easy to click as they are thinking about putting the foot down or tensing etc. If you just free choice treats while you are handling the feet (same with anywhere on the body), they just start to see feet handling = a jolly nice time.

[VR]

Hilary – yes, I thought of that later after my post I think using something bigger and harder to grab is a good one to try! It did strike me afterwards that the little red ball on the end of the stick probably did look quite tasty, like a little apple perhaps

As for teaching him to grab/pick up things on request? I’m not sure about this in all honesty. Whilst I understand the idea behind teaching him to do something on cue to stop him just doing it randomly at will and I also can see how having a horse pick up your whip etc out hacking if you drop it would be useful; trick training my pony is not an idea that I am wholly comfortable with  My aim instead is to only use the clicker training to tackle certain issues, though arguable this is to some extent training “tricks” in itself. That aside, Kaz’s favourite self taught party trick is already to pick things up ... buckets, whips, brushes etc and to wave them at people for attention so I would also be concerned that he would then just start offering this behaviour all the time, seeking a reward. He has already learnt “leave it” (if I catch him in time!) and “give” to release whatever is in his mouth if not though

Lyndsey, I will definitely try your suggestion too of clicking sooner, in conjunction with the bigger target, both good tips, thank you. Sometimes it does really just take someone on the outside looking in to point out common sense

With regards to handling, I see what you mean re the classic conditioning and this is the method I’ve used for the last year or so, albeit minus the chucking treats in a bucket bit but using haynets and feed to sort of distract him and also to make him associate food with feet in the hope of making it all a more pleasurable experience. It so far hasn’t really done the trick, because whilst this would make him tolerate the feet handling, he still wouldn’t relax. I absolutely see what you mean re the potential problems with teaching this through clicker training though and is something I will be more mindful of  He loves people, fuss and attention, so making handling fun isn’t really the issue as he is otherwise very good in all respects and enjoys being handled. I think the feet issue possibly stems from a few years ago when he spent a spell in veterinary hospital  as a baby after an accident where they did all kinds of repeated flexion and lameness tests on my then untouched pone. So sadly but unavoidably his first experiences of having his legs and feet handled weren’t happy ones My fault for not addressing it sooner and leaving it until 2, almost 3 years later before doing something about his foot hang up

[Lyndsey Lewis]

 I think the feet issue possibly stems from a few years ago when he spent a spell in veterinary hospital  as a baby after an accident where they did all kinds of repeated flexion and lameness tests on my then untouched pone. So sadly but unavoidably his first experiences of having his legs and feet handled weren’t happy ones My fault for not addressing it sooner and leaving it until 2, almost 3 years later before doing something about his foot hang up

Ugh...this is always trickier when they have baggage but will come in time. It sounds like you are on top of it though and doing all the good stuff.

[SueWhitmore]

Also, the mouthy phase passes. Young colts *need* to mouth objects, it is part of their developmental exploration of the world. I used to use a tennis ball covered in a muslin cloth as a displacement object for Uranio. (I could hold it by the cloth). He didn't like the texture, but it was something he could put in his mouth instead of, at the time, chunks of me. I think you do need to have something really large as a target, but I think you may need to intersperse this with permitted mouthings of a round object. They do like round things!

Hilary, I thinks hats are *rubbish* targets.  It isn't so damn cold in Texas! Uranio was on box rest all this winter, and his best game was to sneak up behind me while I was skipping out and relieve my head of my hat. I never even noticed him doing it until the icy blast of the sub zero temperatures hit my head. I compounded the behaviour by laughing.  Fortunately, his windows were shuttered otherwise it would have been dropped outside, however he just used to choose the nearest poo pile. 

[Trudi]

  sorry was it wrong that I laughed? Mine is a mouthy mugger too (well one of them) and yesterday he somehow undid his bolt and escaped, most horse would head for the hay, feed bucket or other goodies but Chapsi headed for every headcollar, lead, lunge, brush, rug, etc that he could and mouthed them and threw them on the floor! No further advice and sorry to laugh.

[SueWhitmore]

sorry was it wrong that I laughed? Mine is a mouthy mugger too (well one of them) and yesterday he somehow undid his bolt and escaped, most horse would head for the hay, feed bucket or other goodies but Chapsi headed for every headcollar, lead, lunge, brush, rug, etc that he could and mouthed them and threw them on the floor! No further advice and sorry to laugh.

You shouldn't laugh, it only encourages them to do it again. Ooops, I forgot, we're doing +R now...... 

I bet you stood their in hysterics with Chapsi didn't you? That's what I do, especially when they have that determined, I'm on important business, don't interrupt me look on their faces. 

[Trudi]

Absolutely Sue, he's very hard to be cross at so I do laugh  :laugh:and yes that 'I'm on important business' look is so true, he did it in the school yesterday with a piece of plastic that he spent five minutes investigating 

[hilary]

  Bet you got asked what perfume you were wearing if twas a steaming pile Sue.

When I was teaching Lottie pedestals etc, she proudly joined me with her front feet on the muck trailer  - then I thought better not do that incase is the car next !  Am very strict now in that my mounting block is my mounting block , not my pedestal!

[SueWhitmore]

  Am very strict now in that my mounting block is my mounting block , not my pedestal!

Oh, I have such a picture in my mind of you sharing your mounting block......