Working with Verity - all advice welcome.

[janehon]

Tomorrow I go for my first Clicker session with Verity.

Background:

Verity is a yearling welsh pony who has decided she isn't very fond of women. I was talking to her owners a week ago and suggested that clicker might allow them to make women a nice thing for this pony and encourage her to stay around. We don't know what has triggered this behaviour although I'm hoping maybe we'll work it out eventually.

The idea is that I'll go and work with her once or twice a week and the owners will try and consilidate the work in between times. I am fairly new to clicker work myself so am open to as much advice as anyone wants to post! I'm going to try really hard to help this pony avoid the idea suggested to them by the breeder of leaving it loose in the field with a leadrope attached so they can grab it from a distance and hold on Luckily the owner is not a fan of forcing the issue like this and really keen to try the clicker stuff and we'll probably try and get some of the other ponies she has got engaged in it too

[janehon]

My Plan:

The very basic plan I have outlined is working on the idea of getting her to like being near women as a starting point.

Starting in the stable,
Step 1 CT for allowing me to approach, work towards getting closer
Step 2 CT for allowing me stand within touching distance
Step 3 CT for allowing me to raise a hand, work toward reaching out too
Step 4 CT for allowing me to touch her shoulder, work up to touching face
Step 5 Repeat above whilst holding headcollar
Step 6 Repeat above steps over the field fence
Step 7 Repeat above steps in the field

I think that that will keep us busy for quite a few sessions yet, especially as there will be lots of incremental steps between each of the bigger ones. Of course the one thing I have not included is to find out what treats she really likes!  I am aware that at the moment the best treat for her could well be that I back off, so I might start out with her bucket in the stable so I can click the behaviour, put treat in bucket and retreat to give her space, almost a double wammy of thank-you. Nice edible things and the nasty lady goes away. Of course the whole plan is that I stop being a nasty lady

What do you think?

[Lyndsey Lewis]

You may not want to think too  much about a plan until you have met and interacted with the pony. However I think you have a good grasp on clicker training from what you've said. Build trust incrementally and may have to use a bucket to treat etc. 

I wrote a long post on that +R -R thread about having the pony follow you with buckets which might be a fun thing to try...??

You also might think about really involving the owners in the clicker training and maybe have them train him to put his head in  a halter...???

I look forward to hearing about what your experience is with him after your first session!! Good on you for helping him out. I hope you have fun!!

[janehon]

Well it went very well Once I'd worked out the treat she will really work for is chopped up apple

She loves bits of apple and once she realised looking at me would produce a piece she latched on really quick

I think she needs a bit more practice to really get that the important thing is the click but she was getting there and seemed much more interested in being involved with me at all than when I met her the other week. After we'd finished and left them in the field she even came to see us over the fence so got some CT for that and for letting her neck be scratched

I showed the owner how to play targetting to give them something to work on this week and I'm going again on Thursday. She's a lovely little thing to work with and not really that bad once she realised there was something in it for her. The owner is thinking of trying the bucket trick with a 2yr she bought in who had hardly been handled and although now much better is still reluctant to approach.

I have a step to add to my list - working on getting her to approach.

[Lyndsey Lewis]

  Glad to hear!!! And great that you got the owner's involved!! I look forward to hearing about the progress.

Good Job! Click!!   

[nona]

Sounds like a really exciting project.  You have mentioned target training which is the one thing I was thinking of, that might be helpful to add to your list fairly  early on.

It will be interesting to hear more about how you are getting on with her.

All the best

Nona

[janehon]

Sounds like a really exciting project.  You have mentioned target training which is the one thing I was thinking of, that might be helpful to add to your list fairly  early on.

I was a bit wary about the targetting bit as I didn't really know if she'd let me get close enough to do any.

So pleased with what we achevied had some lovely texts off the owner later in the day. Verity came to see her and hung around for scratches over the fence and goodies

[Trudi]

  only just seen this Jane, great start 

[flintfootfilly]

Sounds like a good start.

Are you sure it's a "woman" thing and not an "owner" thing?  I only ask because if one of their other ponies is showing a similar trend, it could be more than a coincidence?

The only thing I'd be wary of is the pony becoming too demanding of treats if the owners aren't yet up to speed with being clear about boundaries, so the owner's ground skills would become a high priority for me to ensure they would still be safe with a pony who REALLY wanted to be with them!   

Sarah

[janehon]

The other pony was bought in as a weanling like that and won't come to anyone. Owner has got to the point where she can catch it but it has to be very softly softly catchy monkey
She was advised by the breeder to rack it up on the yard then when it was tired she'd be able to do anything with it (she didn't by the way and has got as far as she has just by being a nice person to be around)

I went to play with Verity again today

I went in the field first and she came trotting over and we played targetting and 'aren't scratches nice'! She even let me scratch under her chin so she got a jackpot and left to consider everything while owner and I went and had a coffee

Then we came back out and I watched from a distance at first while owner came down to field to show me what she'd been doing. Verity trotted over to the fence to see her (apparantly she's been doing this a lot ) They played with targetting and then scratches but we decided she'd stick to doing targetting for a bit longer to improve her timing as you have to be very quick to get the click in before Verity thinks about moving away sometimes. Although even when spooked between click and treat delivery by the wind she came straight back and waited for her treat

Owner was also able to catch Verity, give her a scratch and let her go again. She has been able to do this since Monday so was very happy. Verity is now able to move to the summer grazing and have some fun as she can be handled much more reliably

Without this forum I'd never of thought of using CT in this way and it has also made me consider the more in depth stuff talked about on the big question thread. These youngsters have had very little -r used in their training and I'm wondering if that is why Verity caught on so quickly? She really had the click down pat - very quickly. Her one ear locks on to you the minute you click even if she's also watching out for pony eating newspaper She also seems to have understood anti mugging training well - very important for prospective children's ponies I think.

[Trudi]

  this is great Jane, real progress!

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Without this forum I'd never of thought of using CT in this way and it has also made me consider the more in depth stuff talked about on the big question thread. These youngsters have had very little -r used in their training and I'm wondering if that is why Verity caught on so quickly? She really had the click down pat - very quickly. Her one ear locks on to you the minute you click even if she's also watching out for pony eating newspaper She also seems to have understood anti mugging training well - very important for prospective children's ponies I think.

Great news so far! Sounds like fun! 

Interesting topic about the horses who have had very little -R. It reminds me that there can be a world's difference in the kind of -R (and +R) that we use. When we are very subtle and soft with our -R and quick to release as soon as we see any compliance, there is no trauma associated with the training. So no handling is better than bad handling when dealing with a re-train - no matter if it's -R or +P etc. Hopefully your pony doesn't have any bad memories...???

[shoveltrash]

great stuff!!!!!
just caught on to what you are up to here

there can be a world's difference in the kind of -R (and +R) that we use. When we are very subtle and soft with our -R and quick to release as soon as we see any compliance, there is no trauma associated with the training. So no handling is better than bad handling when dealing with a re-train - no matter if it's -R or +P etc.

well said and i do agree completely. 

[janehon]

The really good news is that Verity has moved to the big summer field and her owner is able to work with her and catch her out there

She has fenced off a small corner - just to keep the others away as she is now in a group of 7 - and catches Verity to take her into this area to practice their Clicker stuff

The really good news is she had a friend visit at the weekend - a female friend who in the past Verity would have had nothing to do with - and Verity was quite happy to come up and say hello and have a scratch

Makes me think how interesting it would be to start a horse making more use of the clicker............good job I can't afford another one

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Makes me think how interesting it would be to start a horse making more use of the clicker............good job I can't afford another one

  Lots of folks who do dog clicker training volunteer at shelters to practice their skills and help out of course making the dogs more adoptable. I've always thought it would be good to find a horse shelter...right now I don't seem to have enough time for my own horses but maybe one day...

Good job with Verity! It's so much fun when all goes well. And so rewarding to us!