Please explain (biomechanically) why shoulder-in is so beneficial

[Naiad]

Well the best way to get a thread going is to start a row er,debate, on it  

So maybe I will have to make my opening questions in my threads more deliberately provocative!!!    

Quite seriously, I really respect all of the opinions and wealth of knowledge on here from the more advanced riders/trainers to the more novice. I am genuinely curious about the questions that I ask - I joined this board to gain knowledge and to also chat to like-minded people in their approach to horses/riding, but I could perhaps hold back from asking quite so many questions and give people a rest... 

[renta]

jenb,
Sorry I put wrong. It´s PK= Philippe Karl

[jenb]

Lol, I thought you meant Katie Price for a minute....   

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Sorry I'm coming in late to this thread. Great question by the way. I've always wondered this as well. It seems too simple an exercise to have so much power...??

I guess I have always thought of the shoulder in FIRST as a straightening exercise..? The way we access control over the body parts - especially the shoulder. But I'm learning (as others have said here) that it is also a way for the inside hind to do weight lifting exercises. Perhaps the control part is just an early benefit and the real value is all in building strength behind one leg at a time. 

And I suppose that on 4 tracks when the shoulders are even more in on the circle, it would be harder work on that inside hind...??...which is why with babes we start with shoulder fore or an approximation...??

[prettydaffodil]

Jenb, I love people's generosity at passing on their knowledge, yours was a brilliant explanation, thank you.

It's a real suppling and strengthening action for the hind leg, and is part of the reason why giravolta work is so good, that creates the same stepping forward and under motion but to a more extreme level.  It has more strengthening benefit if the work is done slow, so that the loading phase of the limb (when it is in contact with the ground and weight bearing) is extended for longer.

So, would you categorise the giravolte as as good an exercise, if not better, than shoulder in?  Can we have as good an explanation on giravolte aids and effects?  When I do giravolte, I always have this fear that it's going wrong and so to understand the effects, both regarding stretching of muscles and "body-building", and where the horse's weight should be would help me know when it's right or wrong.

Thank you so much, Kate

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Jenb, I love people's generosity at passing on their knowledge, yours was a brilliant explanation, thank you.

Ditto! 

So, would you categorise the giravolte as as good an exercise, if not better, than shoulder in?  Can we have as good an explanation on giravolte aids and effects?  When I do giravolte, I always have this fear that it's going wrong and so to understand the effects, both regarding stretching of muscles and "body-building", and where the horse's weight should be would help me know when it's right or wrong.

Great question! I'm also curious about this.

When I do giravolte with my horses it always feels very dramatic and they tend to rush and be a bit all over the place. They'll do it - but I wonder if it's too much at times and that I should have my shoulder fore more established...?? Or at least have them stronger. However, in the Anja Beran dvd's she seems to do quite a bit at an early stage...??? Perhaps because we are not riding them, it really is not so hard for them..??

[lisaNW]

Just a quick add - if the giravolte is rushed it won't have much benefit - you want them taking it steadily in balance rather than "falling" through it - if that makes sense? So asking for one really steady step would probably be more beneficial than lots of rushed ones :-)

[Lyndsey Lewis]

Just a quick add - if the giravolte is rushed it won't have much benefit - you want them taking it steadily in balance rather than "falling" through it - if that makes sense? So asking for one really steady step would probably be more beneficial than lots of rushed ones :-)

Yes that makes sense! Thanks for that thought Lisa! I think you nailed the problem and why it didn't feel so good to me. I actually started walking in front of Ruby and sort of body blocking him to try and get him to slow. It worked sort of but still didn't have a nice feel. And it always felt as if he was working too hard...?? I guess that's why I'm curious about if there is a natural progression from shoulder-in to giravolte...???

However looking back on that work, I think the Ruby's rushing (through everything!) was related to body pain. So there was no sort of right answer for him in that respect except to try and heal his body. I STILL don't have footing and we have a cold rain today but I'm really looking forward to seeing how he accepts the work this summer...

[jenb]

Agree with Lisa.  I think I might have said earlier on that the slower, the better, *because* when the hoof is on the ground and weight bearing, the supporting muscles are engaged and working.  So the longer the hoof is in contact with the ground, the harder the muscles work, and the more strength is built up.  If the hoof is only on the ground for a very short time, it is likely that the horse is not engaging his supporting muscles at all, and is just using momentum to keep himself up, rather than core strength.

The benefit of giravolte, as I see it, is very similar to the SI but more pronounced.  The horse is adducting and abducting all four legs to a degree, which has a great impact on lateral mobility and suppleness.  Also, if the giravolte is slow, it really makes the horse engage his core muscles to hold himself up.