4 track SI argument thread

[issywizz]

I should like to start a row ahem,debate about 4 track SI  

Ive come across several differing opinions on this subject;
Erik says that anything more than 3 tracks is a LY because the Qs no longer track straight down the school.
When I queried this a joke was made that even most 3 tracks lost the Qs   not particularly helpful I thought.

Simon Battram also says that a 4 track SI should have the Qs facing directly down the school the same as in 3 track but said the only time he had seen it achieved 'properly' in this way was at the SRS.

Trudi and I think , Lippa, said on a thread a while ago that the 4 track SI wasnt supposed to have the Qs tracking straight down the school anyway and seemed to think that was a bit of an odd thing to aim for as if it was impossible   correct me if Im remembering wrong ladies.  

Trudi and Lippa also said that a 4 track SI was not a LY even though the Qs no longer tracked straight forwards because the horse was still bent round the inside leg,this is of course true but I suppose Erik says its LY because he feels the gymnastic effect of the 3 track is lost?

Anyway I have a pic for us to fight over  

Firstly would you say this is a 4 track SI?

Secondly would you say the Qs are facing forwards down the track?

Thirdly,no comments on the spaz look on my face please  




This is a 3 track for comparison




Actually this might be a beter comparison as both feets are on the ground;

[Nix77]

You win IW, you are the greatest nerd of all! 

My answer is - I don't know. although i cannot picture a 4 track with Q's facing square down the track  Maybe the real question is what are you aiming to do with the 4 track leg yeild, and does it accomplish that aim?

I also have a question - whats the difference between a 4 track SI and a Leg yeild with a bit of bend? (as i seem to recall Heather suggesting as sometimes beneficial on another thread)

[issywizz]

 

Im not hoping to do anything,I was trying to do a 3 track SI but was interested when I saw the pic as I thought ot would be good for the debate 

There will be a different gymnastic effect on the Qs between a 4 track SI and a LY with inside bend as the LY is not a collecting exercise because the inside hind doesnt bear any more weight.

[hilary]

According to Udo Burger , whose book I like more and more ( he says when first using spurs, one should just wear normal trousers and shoes, so there is no protection on the humans achilles tendon  -  meaning you will use them with tact!!)

He "feels  impulsion cannot be satisfactory if the drive developed by the hindlegs is not in  line with the forelegs..... Although  it may be necessary sometimes during schooling, to compel the horse to move sideways more than this, or to inflex him more, so that he makes four, or ,eventually two traces, this cannot be done without impairing impulsion and regularity ,, riding to music will easily prove this fact" ( page 92)

So he is def for the 3 track!

[issywizz]

You arent playing properly 
You are supposed to answer the questions and then we can all argue 

[Christine]

I actually prefer the first one as you have more elevation in front and I'd say you are only "out" by half a hoof......if that is an argument about the argument about the..............! Col F once suddenly exploded "These classical people with their four track shoulder in" and semed so upset that I have never dared to deviate since. I think maybe that the mechanical benefit of the trot diagonal ie the outside fore pulling the inside hind through to engage and thus lower the quarters, may be slightly lost in four tracks other that that I shall now sit back and listen as usual!

[Trudi]

oh all right then  
Not arguing but always happy to discuss.

Firstly I think stills are really hard to truly judge from but yes the first looks to be 4 track, just  
I don't think I've ever seen  a 4 track with the hinds pointing the same way as they would when working on a 'straight' line (the definition of which we all find it hard enough to agree on) but then I've not seen the same amount of work at the SRS as SB has but thinking on how the horse bends I do struggle to see how it's possible but then not all horses are the same, I've just not seen them.

So 1. Yes
     2. Well they are pointing in the general direction of 'forwards down the track' but not in the same line that they would when 'straight'
     3. No comment (as requested)  

If you want to discuss the riding of SI and angles, bend etc then we could argue over that  

[hilary]

Sorry, don't do arguing

[issywizz]

Hmm,we are getting somewhere 

Trudi,what would the hinds be doing differently if it was a straight line? the feets are pointing forwards-yes? and the hocks also look pretty straight on to me?

So do we agree that a 4 track SI with hinds tracking straight as in a 3 track rather than at an angle as a LY is being shown?
In which case I dont geddit why Erik says what he says nor why you and Lippa said they wouldnt be straight in a 4 track? I did get that right didnt I?

Can we also discuss what happens gymnastically speaking in a 4 track next please? 

[issywizz]

Lippa Im soooo dissapointed in you 

You have lost your bobbles I think 

[Trudi]

  @ Lippa

Too tired to discuss now and tbh I'm rubbish at putting what's in my head/heart into words even when I'm awake...

[janehon]

"If a cat always falls on his feet and sandwich falls always the butter site downwards,what happens if you tie the cat to the sandwisch? Wich one wins?" etc etc.

The bobble has spoken.ugh.

That is a very good question, one to mull over for hours Of course the really interesting question is what would happen if you tied the cat to the sandwich feet-butter. Would there be some interesting acrobatics so both could win? Would the result be different if they were tied back to back? Of course one sure thing is that tying a cat to a sandwich will not stop hair getting in the butter even if it no longer lands butter side down! But then you can't win them all..........

I'm somewhat out of my depth on the SI questions so will leave it at that

[issywizz]

I may have to have a tantrum  is there no way of inciting this forum into affray? 

[shoveltrash]

i'll admit to being confused by the subject

although i like the debate about cats/buttered sandwiches!

[issywizz]

Look you lot,its very simple   
The question is;
Is it possible to do a 4 track SI with the hinds facing down the track the same as they should be in a 3 track?

If it is not then please explain the above pic. 

Blimey,some arguments are hard work