Bob's Clicker Training Diary

[Jojoba]

No, I will look into that. TBH I'm not against the idea of telling him something was naughty - he got himself over-wound and silly and being told off bumped him back down to earth and got his concentration back, which earned him a treat. It was that or keep trying to quietly put him back in place as he got more and more frustrated and giddy (Bob's main problem is getting giddy/anxious esp if he gets a fright); I was discussing this with a friend the other day who does a lot of clicker and uses it quite effectively; one of her horses, like Bob, tends to get really anxious and can sometimes start upsetting himself and she has found that telling clearly that he is actually misbehaving (through positive punishment if needed, eg a shout or smacking her leg or something which snaps his attention back) tends to calm him down... certainly calmed Bob right down today; maybe its that he still wants to feel that I am the dominant one when he is feeling spooky/stressed? Would hope it would be something which I could wean out though in favour of him choosing to be calm instead. Will look at the AK stuff though/ask Amanda .

xxx

[ash]

Will definately be interested in the outcomes of mixing positive punishment with clicker training.  It is certainly something many clicker trainers try to avoid, but it will be interesting to see how that combination works for you and Bob.

[Jojoba]

I know it is not desirable, and is not something I will do unless I really cant help it (like today, when the alternative was horse pushing past me and dragging me). How would clicker trainers usually deal with a situation like that without using any form of positive punishment? Surely even hanging onto a horse to stop it disappearing is positive punishment because you are introducing pressure as a result of the horse's behaviour?
Would be interested to know how other people with pushy or excitable horses manage clicker training these behaviours out of them when it's the heat of the moment. But for now I will just continue doing as I'm told (ie not trying to work anything out myself) and working on the WWYLM  . I wouldn't usually have bothered in such high wind as it seems like setting up for failure (Bob is always bad in the wind) - I had just hoped it would be okay since it was pretty nice and still when I arrived. Stupid weather!

xxx

[ash]

Actually, sorry, my reply sounded really unhelpful and arrogant.

What I was trying to suggest was that maybe it would be useful to confine the clicker training sessions to more stress free situations, until you have the behaviours really well established, before using them in 'real life' situations.  That would make it much easier then to avoid having to mix positive reinforcement with positive punsihment, which frankly isn't ideal.

So what I'm saying I guess is that it might be more valuable to confine your use of clicker to training sessions specifically, where you have all Bob's attention, and then when that is going really well, start transferring it to everyday situations, rather than trying to tackle the everyday stuff as if it were a training session.  That way you could make sure that all the training and learning took place in a calm environment.

[ash]

When I first got Faith, I held off using clicker for a while until she had settled in and was more focussed on me rather than checking out her surroundings etc.  Then I used clicker for very specific things until I was happy that she really understood what it meant, and gradually we used it for more and more stuff.

Don't feel that you have to immediately use clicker for everything, or in every situation.  Personally if there is a situation where I know I might have to use some negative reinforcement, or there are likely to be aversives, for example in a high stress situation, I would not use the clicker.

What I would do is use the clicker in calm, well defined training sessions, to build a set of behaviours which will hopefully eventually become so well established that they can be used in more challenging situations, without the need to recourse to negative reinforcement or positive punishment.

So my personal method is to train the behaviours first, and when they are established, then use them as every day tools.  That way, it is easier for the horse to learn them, and the quality of the learning is better, because you can afford to make it as aversive free as possible, the behaviours also become so well established that they almost become like a 'default setting' for the horse.  That way, you know your horse is truly being calm, rather than just suppressing his behaviour and emotions to avoid punishment.


I hope that is helpful and makes some sense. 

[Jojoba]

Not at all! Im just trying not to teach anything wrong; I'm starting to think Bob might be a lot cleverer than I am .

I have emailed my instructor to see what she would say to do in such a situation!
I guess one of the problems with doing it in set training sessions (which I would far prefer!) would be that I still have to get him in and out of the field, and to and from the sessions.... in which case he would still be pulling and overtaking.... so he would be leading badly more than he would be leading well... or if he does lead in from the field politely and I don't recognise and reward that, he might not bother next time since the rules don't seem to be consistent? Tricky stuff, this clicker training.
I am holding off using it for everything (though he did get a couple of clicks today for being well behaved having his tack put on and picking all four feet up without any fuss (and without me really touching them because they were really muddy  ). Having his feet picked up was actually the first clicker thing I did with him, thinking about it. Right back when I first got him he wouldn't pick up his feet so I clicker trained him to do so and now he is really good at it. I'd forgotten about that!)
I think the weather calming down will be really useful for us in terms of finding a calmer environment. No point doing anything at all when it's like this  . Hope it calms down over the weekend...
If I was to only do WWYLM in a 'training session', how would he know when it was over? If he does it well in the session and is getting rewarded for it, then I lead him out of the school but I'm suddenly not producing treats anymore, would that not be mixed messages?

Thanks for all your replies, much appreciated .

xxx

[ash]

If I was to only do WWYLM in a 'training session', how would he know when it was over? If he does it well in the session and is getting rewarded for it, then I lead him out of the school but I'm suddenly not producing treats anymore, would that not be mixed messages?

There tend to be two schools of thought on this one.  Some CT'ers prefer to do all their clicking in distinct training sessions, and at no other times.  They may wear their special CT bumbag, or a special treat waistcoat for the sessions, and at the end of a session, mark that it has finished with a jackpot, and the removal of said item of clothing, or even have a special cue like both hands up, to tell the horse that treats are no longer available.

Personally I am of the second camp who do keep treats on them at all times in order to 'catch' good behaviour and click it reward it whenever it happens.  However, if I knew that I was about to potentially be in a stressful situation with a horse, where perhaps my timing might be compromised, or it may not be clear what i'm clicking for, or if I might end up using negative reinforcement even if I didn't want to, then I would not use the clicker at all, simply to avoid any potential confusion.

Also, if your 'grown ups are talking' training is secure, which i'm sure it is, Bob will know perfectly well when to expect treats and when not to.  You are in control of the clicker training, not Bob, and if treats and clicks are not on offer at a particular moment, then he will have to accept that. That is after all part of the self restraint that CT helps to produce.


Obviously, I am writing all this from my own personal perspective.  Talking to Amanda is definately the best way to go, as she is the professional, and knows far more about all this than I do.  But also do what feels right for you and Bob as well, as you know him best.

[lisaNW]

Surely even hanging onto a horse to stop it disappearing is positive punishment because you are introducing pressure as a result of the horse's behaviour?

Also it might help to turn this on its head and you do little, just anchor yourself and he pulls against you...I'd say there's a subtle difference, and particularly you stay totally indifferent to the fact that he's been silly or rude... bit like supernanny - it never works if the parents get emotionally involved, they just set the boundaries and rules (fairly!) and unemotionally carry them out consistently and without "getting involved"...does that make sense? The rope handling work will help you understand how to anchor yourself strongly, so then we he pulls against you, he doesn't drag you.
Johanna and I have a video of us demonstrating it on foot.... um...might share it with you privately if I can find it!!

Enjoy your journey, think you'll find it really interesting and helpful