poisoned cues

[Flyingfox]

This is a question about poisoned cues.

Just as in intro to where I am in my understanding/experience and use of reward based training -
I have been using treat reward based training now for about the past 5 years to train my 4 horses, as I bought a 3 year old horse in 2005 (Flying Fox) who needed to be trained from the ground as he could not be ridden - partly because he was still too young and weak and partly because he was actually a fairly severe headshaker too, but that is another story!
I am not a pure clicker trainer and I do not use an actual clicker, but I do use positive reinforcement in the shape of food treats and I use a bridging signal word - I use a protracted 'goooood' - and I use other words too, to encourage repeat tries or to indicate a mistake.  The horses understand quite a few words now, either word cues for a particular movement I am asking for, or as an indication that they have made an incorrect try, or that they need to repeat a movement. I use this method to train for trick training, - I have trained all of my four horses to do all or some of the following - kneeling bow, targetting an object, levade, spanish walk, nodding for yes, shaking for no, crossing front legs, mounting pedestals with all four feet, or mounting with two feet, obeisance bow, and I use it for ground work training in hand - for work such as shoulder in, shoulder out, rein back, renvers, beginnings of piaffe, and I use positive reinforcement again to train ridden work when carrying out pre-learned ground work under saddle or when rewarding for learning a new movement. I use shaping sometimes, looking for movements being offered,  I avoid blurring, especially when starting to teach a new movement and I always praise the smallest tries  at the start of a new movements learning curve. I have learned this directly and specifically from Allen Pogue in Texas, whome I have spent time with in USA, from trick training books and from DVDs too. In short, I am not a traditional pure CT trainer, but I can see that there are big parallels.

So, back to the question - I have been given various descriptions of what comprises a 'poisoned cue' by different trainers, and I am curious to hear what the CT people here think of as a 'Poisoned Cue'.

To put myself on the line here, I understand a poisoned cue to mean that if I were to treat reward a horse to enable me to cause the horse to submit to allowing a slightly unpleasant/fearful activity such as perhaps a blood sampling or frightening (to that horse) activity being carried out or scary (to that horse) object being brought near, this could cause an unpleasant and negative association with treats and is to be avoided  where possible as it will sour the training of the horse in future. What are the CT users thoughts on this?

[ash]

My understanding of a cue is that it is something that accurately predicts a response in the presence of that cue.  For example if I give the cue 'sit' to my dog, her predictable response is to sit.  The behaviour is linked to the cue, it is a signal for the behaviour to occur.

Some cues can become linked to behaviour very very quickly, particularly if they predict a bad outcome.  For example, the raising of a whip, can quickly become linked with a bad outcome if a horse has been beaten with one.  That particular cue will elicit a fear response because the horse associates it with something bad about to happen.  That cue therefore becomes poisoned because it is linked in the horses mind with a bad outcome.

The action of raising a whip is not in itself intrinsically a poisoned cue, it only becomes one when linked with a bad outcome.

That is my interpretation anyway, and I hope what I have written is at least slightly clearer than mud!

With enough repetition and positive reinforcement, cues can become un-poisoned, but this tends to be a much longer process, and the horse probably never forgets the association with the original bad outcome.  

[ash]

In answer to the second part of your question, I think it is perfectly acceptable to use CT to habituate a horse to a fearful stimulus, but it depends very much on how you go about that.

For example, if you were for example training a horse to walk over a tarp, there are several ways to go about this.

Personally, as someone who tends more to the 'pure' end of CT, I would probably use free shaping to do this.  I would allow the horse at liberty to choose how close to the tarp she came, and reward every little attempt to approach it, until she was happy to roam all over it.  Every step would be the horse's choice, but she would find the added benefit of a reward for the 'right' choice.  Once the behaviour is established, and the horse is comfortable walking on the tarp, then I would work to put the behaviour on cue.

At the other end of the scale, if you tried 'flooding' the horse by forcing it to walk on the tarp, and then rewarding it when it does, you are more likely to elicit a fear response, which may then become linked with the click and treat, and therefore they may become 'poisoned'.

As someone who is very much at the start of their clicker journey, I try to do as much of my clicker training as possible, with the horse at liberty.  This is simply because my skills as a trainer are very much at the fledgling stage, and I wish to avoid creating as much conflict in training as I possibly can.

Similarly, there are some things that I would not use the clicker for.  I wouldn't use CT to train anything that would potentially make my horse feel physically compromised or vulnerable, e.g. sitting down, or bowing.  As for taking blood etc. I need to think about that.  I would be happy to train behaviours that are conducive to standing quietly for the vet etc. But probably the best I could hope for at the moment in my thoughts on this, is that the fallout from my general positive training woul be enough to ensure that my horse trusts me enough to endure such a procedure, rather than me training a linked behaviour directly.

Much wiser clicker peeps than me will no doubt be able to give you a clearer response.

[Flyingfox]

Thanks for that Ash. That was very helpful because I have travelled a path to this kind of training in a slightly unconventional way and so I have undoubtedly missed a few points which I should have been taught years ago.

I wouldn't use CT to train anything that would potentially make my horse feel physically compromised or vulnerable, e.g. sitting down, or bowing.  

I am aroused in curiousity to ask why you make this statement about using CT to teach bowing or sitting down?
My pony will bow on one knee and perform obeisance bow although I did not use clicker training to teach him this. I am not sure why you would not use CT as I am not a trad CT, so dont know what the difference in our methods may be............but I do not use force or flooding to train my horses as ultimately I dont think this works well.

Obviously, I can see that for some equine characters bowing will cause varying degrees of vulnerability initially and I can also see that a levade may make some horses feel over dominant initially, - which is why in my training sessions I always follow a levade with a bow, especially when at the stage soon after I have just taught the beginnings of levade. I also use a specific location to teach levade innitially, to help the horses understand when and where it is appropriate to offer this and when and where it is not. My horses always offer their latest trick to me to gain my attention, so it is important for safety to be sure that levade is not offered at an innapropriate time.
As for sitting, I do not feel this is a very subservient position as the head is still raised, though the lowered hind end will cause horses to feel vulnerable - depending how lowered the hind end is - and at first this need not be vey much lowered. Sitting -  in the circles I have learned from, is often taught after a lie down has been already established, and a lie down is the ultimate subservient pose for a horse of course.

[ash]

Its not that I wouldn't teach it with CT FlyingFox, I just wouldn't teach them at all.  I don't particularly like things that naturally put the horse in a vulnerable position, like lying down, sitting down or bowing. i.e things that take his feet away from him.  Nor do I like things that involve the horse holding themselves in an unnatural way, Alexandra Kurland's  'pose' for instance, although I am a great admirer of her work.

This is totally due to my own ethics, and not a judgement on anyone else, I'm not saying they are immoral, just things I personally would not choose to train my own horses.  I have very strong gut instincts about what is right and wrong to train horses, and I just try to stay true to them.  It probably doesn't make much sense to anyone else, but it does to me! 

[TashaKat]

Just to add to what Ash has said you can also 'poison' a cue that has been taught purely with +R if you then add aversives to it.

In +R you reward the behaviour (or an attempt at that behaviour) but ignore unwanted behaviours.  Thus, when working with +R you use -P as your 'correction'.

If, for example, you've taught your horse to back up and reward them for doing so but they one day don't do as you've asked so you maybe start applying pressure on the halter or shaking a rope at them then this can become a poisoned cue.  The behaviour has been poisoned because they are now worried about the aversive that can follow so will either comply for fear of the consequences or be less likely to comply in the future.


I agree with Ash re AK's posing, I really don't like that at all as I don't see a purpose for it but I don't mind doing things like carrots stretches (bows, curtseys etc) as they have a function (stretching for example) plus 'tricks' are good for practising clicker with as it doesn't matter if you don't get it right.  I really don't like laying a horse down though, that probably comes from seeing the way that some people lay horses down so that's my prejudice rather than there being something intrinsically wrong with it.


I really must watch AK's poisoned cue DVD 

[lisaNW]

Interesting postings! Don't have time to add anything in-depth but wanted to comment on the posing. My view is that you teach what you reward, and I suspect there are quite a few people who teach the "pose" without having a clear objective. For me, a good "pose" would be the stance a horse takes when really carrying themselves (and to me they do this at a standstill, think of when they see another horse or something a bit interesting and grow a few inches,looking majestic!) - I want them to carry themselves (at halt and moving) to build better musculature for carrying me, so I don't think it's unnatural and I do think it has a purpose, however, I think a lot of people who follow AK's work don't have a classical background, therefore perhaps teach a post that isn't very helpful and I also think it can be very exaggerated and to me sometimes looks ugly and wrong. Which is why I started by saying you teach what you reward.

Poisoned cue territory can be difficult I think - it presents something of a conflict if asking the horse to do something they struggle with physically and may be a little uncomfortable at first, as I would say much re-habbing through classical schooling probably is. Of course there are different levels of that, some that we would all probably go nowhere near, for e.g. with anything difficult I try to keep within the horses current ability and just ask for a little more gradually as they get more supple as many of us would, so are there levels of poisoned cues too? Are there some very subtle poisonings? Interesting stuff!

[ash]

Good point Lisa, the 'pose' is what you make it, you are quite right.   I've just never seen one that I have liked!   

[Flyingfox]

Thanks all of you - this is really interesting and helpful for me!

Its not that I wouldn't teach it with CT FlyingFox, I just wouldn't teach them at all.  I don't particularly like things that naturally put the horse in a vulnerable position, like lying down, sitting down or bowing. i.e things that take his feet away from him.  

Oh - I understand you now - and thats fair enough! I would say though that I see my horses regularly putting themselves into these 'vulnerable' positions though - at liberty in the field!

Personally, I think it depends on the motives of the human as to whether these movements are OK to teach horses to carry out on a cue or not. If they are being taught by a human with any degree of force, in order to prove dominance over the horse, then obviously this is not acceptable to my mind. If however they are being carried out gently and gradually, with kindness and love, teaching the horse a step at a time to be trusting and to be trustworthy, building respect for each other on the way, then that to my mind is OK.

I have taught mine to do obesiance and the kneeling bow and my horses are not scared of me. I believe that they are carrying out the kneeling bow knowing that they are placing themselves in a slightly vulnerable position, but because they trust me and know I will not abuse them by asking them to kneel on a hard surface or act out some dominance behaviour with them while they kneel, this is not such a big issue for them and they are happy to comply.

Just to add to what Ash has said you can also 'poison' a cue that has been taught purely with +R if you then add aversives to it.

In +R you reward the behaviour (or an attempt at that behaviour) but ignore unwanted behaviours.  Thus, when working with +R you use -P as your 'correction'.

If, for example, you've taught your horse to back up and reward them for doing so but they one day don't do as you've asked so you maybe start applying pressure on the halter or shaking a rope at them then this can become a poisoned cue.  The behaviour has been poisoned because they are now worried about the aversive that can follow so will either comply for fear of the consequences or be less likely to comply in the future.

OK - thanks for that - this complicates things a lot. So, if a horse is not compliant for some reason, how should this be dealt with in order to avoid creating a poisoned cue situation?

Presumably then, this definition of a poisoned cue may also include a very commonly seen training issue - poor timing with release from pressure?  

I agree with Ash re AK's posing, I really don't like that at all as I don't see a purpose for it but I don't mind doing things like carrots stretches (bows, curtseys etc) as they have a function (stretching for example) plus 'tricks' are good for practising clicker with as it doesn't matter if you don't get it right.  

What is this 'posing pose' advocated by AK?  - I know nothing of this persons work. Is it the extreme highly rounded, arched neck 'collection' pose, or is it a 'parking out' stretched pose?

I really don't like laying a horse down though, that probably comes from seeing the way that some people lay horses down so that's my prejudice rather than there being something intrinsically wrong with it.

Of course I too have seen the severe ways to 'lay down a horse' and I have also seen good ways to 'teach a horse to lie down'. There is a very big difference in 'laying down a horse' and 'teaching a horse to lay down'. Personally, I would never lay down a horse - it is a cruel and aggressive robbery of dignity and shows no respect for the horse, but I am not against the principle of teaching a horse to lie down - as long as it is carried out in a considered and gentle way - which is perfectly possible.

[TashaKat]

I'm sure that there are, Lisa    I think that this is where intention comes into it too.  If we use aversives because they're not doing what we want them to do and we are getting frustrated then that has a different intention to us using rewards for them standing for the vet etc.  I don't believe that it's a black and white scenario at all and it's up to us to know the horses that we're working with and to assess what is going to cause problems for them.  The head 'scratch/rub' is an aversive for Saffy, for example, whereas it wouldn't bother other horses.

As an example of that I was recently called to a very nasty meeting where I had the floor well and truly wiped with me for nothing that I had done.  Now the very thought of being called to a meeting fills me with dread and I avoid the person who held that meeting as much as I possibly can.  They have been nothing but okay with me since but it's not a situation that I'm going to put myself in again anytime soon.

Another 'aversive' is going to the doctors for blood tests, yes they're aversives but I know they're necessary so, for me, that isn't so much a poisoned cue as coming across the meeting person!

I don't really follow AK although I use some of her stuff so may have misunderstood the 'pose' but whilst I can see it's use for standing a horse up etc I personally believe that the correct musculature comes from correct, gymnastic work rather than 'posing' them into a frame.  As I say, I may have misunderstood but it's one of the things that she teaches that I don't really like.

[catkin]

FF, IMHO as a complete fumbling amateur, what you are doing is pretty much akin to how I understand the principles of the term 'clicker training' to be - setting up for success, good timing, marking the right response follow by reward, teaching a cue for the behaviour - the mechanisms and philosophies are the same, the actual mechanics of the marker are perhaps slightly different (though my filly went through a phase of "'gooood' is the same as a tongue click isn't it?" ) - it's basically good training.

I thought poisoned cues were where the horse found that hearing the marker resulted in something bad happening rather than something good or at worse neutral - which then leads to confusion and panic as things are no longer clear. I don't think it is expressing dissaproval such as 'no' or 'oi' when the behaviour is not desired: for example - a buck in a canter depart will get a "No" even though part of the action was correct (the strike off), a canter depart without a buck will get a "good" or a click whatever language you and your horse use. This is where knowing your horse helps so much.

I don't train many 'tricks' simply because my Welshie gets so involved in the game that she offers her own embellishments and I can just imagine where some things will lead......... I also only really use the click in actual work sessions, not for general manners - I find that we both use a huge amount of concentration and it's unfair on either horse or human to keep at that intensity throughout all our dealings with one another.

[catkin]

another thought has just occurred to me....

I only train like this on my own horses who are inclined to stay with us all their lives - what happens if the horse is sold on and new handlers do not understand or use the same methods - a recipe for disaster perhaps.....and another ethics question methinks.

[TashaKat]

I've just never seen one that I have liked!   

I think that's my issue with it too    Lisa, we need photos

[ash]

another thought has just occurred to me....

I only train like this on my own horses who are inclined to stay with us all their lives - what happens if the horse is sold on and new handlers do not understand or use the same methods - a recipe for disaster perhaps.....and another ethics question methinks.

Yes, and I entirely agree.  However, with my horses, the only way they would possibly be passed on would be in the event of my death, and/or total bankrupcy, and I can't let the thought of those two cheerful scenarios dictate how I live my life or train my horses!  But I totally see your point. 

[TashaKat]

another thought has just occurred to me....

I only train like this on my own horses who are inclined to stay with us all their lives - what happens if the horse is sold on and new handlers do not understand or use the same methods - a recipe for disaster perhaps.....and another ethics question methinks.

I've had Saff on livery with YOs who didn't do clicker and it was fine.  I do ask them not to treat if they aren't going to use clicker as that can be a recipe for a muggy horse!  Obviously I'd prefer that they did use clicker but as long as they're not smacking and mistreating it seems to be ok.

I don't have any intention of selling her on but I would vet new owners carefully whether I used clicker or not.  I know that you never really know how it's going to turn out but most owners out there do the best for their horses with the knowledge that they have.  The same question could be asked no matter what method you chose though whether it be IH, Parelli, Classical etc, they all have  their differences and all disagree with things that others do