Clicker and attitude plus what treats and then what next?

[drummers mum]

  Sorry, lots to ask and tell.

I reintroduced the clicker to Livvi this week, (well I don't use a clicker but I make a cluck sound) and she remembered straight away, we have just done targeting, which she is great at but still loses concentration quite often to gaze at other stuff, is this normal in the beginning?  I tried moving the target around but she won't move her feet for it!  So what next? She reaches up high (which the kids thought was fab ) and down low plus a bit side to side but thats it, she just seems to lose sight of it and give up! Ideas please.

Livvis attitude has been awful recently but she seems to be a much pleasenter person the past few days plus ridden today she was fab, now I'm not sure if thats the clicker or because she had 2 days off, what do you think?

I've been using linseed lozenges as treats but she definitely works harder for sugar lumps, any ideas for treats? the linseed lozenges also get stuck in her teeth

[Wendy]

It does sound like the treats are not yummy enough. Mine love the lozenges even though they do get stuck in their teeth and oddly seem to make them thirsty. But how about cutting up a carrot or apple into small pieces? Or Polos broken up?

Also make sure you are not asking too much too soon. If she doesn't 'get' what you are asking she will lose interest. Break it up into smaller easier chunks, set her up to succeed.

[TashaKat]

Some horses (Saffy) just don't see the point in targeting so will get bored quickly with it even if treats are forthcoming. We think of it as an easy reward but some of them would prefer to do something physical like jambette, curtesy or whatever. It might be worth trying something different to see how she does with it (carrot stretches for example).

Are you using a high rate of reinforcement with new stuff (click/treat every time they perform the behaviour)?

Look at your timing, make sure that you're precise and consistent so that you're marking the behaviour at the same time every time.

I tend to mix up the treats a bit so that I have low value stuff like lucie nuts, chopped up carrots for higher value and a couple of horse treats for the 'jackpot'. Over time the treats aren't as important as the behaviour itself becomes pleasurable but certainly in the early stages it's important that the reward is a reward. For example, some horses will respond well to a scratch, some are neutral and to others it can be an aversive.

To be honest the shift in attitude is probably a combination of both. I have seen great results with clicker but time off can be a good thing too and we mustn't underestimate the value of latent learning!


Good luck, it sounds like you're going in the right direction 

[Appy2quarter]

Fab advice already; another thing may be to reward tiny tiny weight shifts and then walk her forward so that she understands that the two can be interlinked.  So, you'd halt, offer the target just out of reach and reward the smallest shift forward, then walk her forward, halt and repeat.  You'd do this again and again.

Another option is not to expect her to move out of halt but ask her to target whilst she is walking and then have a huge party when she does it!!  Other things to think about may be to change the target - some horses prefer a hand target for example - and definitely look at mixing/reviewing the treats.

Finally, what does she really love doing with the clicker?  Does she love backup? standing square?  If there is something they truly love, you can offer that as a reward for moving to the target.  So, if she walks or even shifts toward the target, let her do whatever she really really loves doing.  For my horse, he'll do anything for the chance to stand square and then offer his pilates-style rockback.

Finally, are you marking even the tiniest thought of moving forward?

As to the attitude, I agree with tashaKat in that it could be both.  I know that if I do c/t groundwork with Loly, she is a much perkier happier chap!

Oh, forgot the 'what next' - have you done any freeshaping?  I think she might really like that.  Also the work on the mat is something a lot of them love - do you have the 'shaping on a point of contact' DVD or Alex's book?  Loly loves that one :-)

[Trudi]

  fab advice already, like TK's heavy reinforcement, one of mine responds really well to this the other loves the mat work but beware if they like it it becomes addictive  mine will wander the school looking for where I've put the mats! Never underestimate the 'freeshaping' as it means (for me anyway) you are looking at what your horse offers rather than asking for a specific and it opens whole new avenues in understanding, sometimes I just sit on an upturned bucket and wait to see what happens, it's never nothing and they generally want to engage you 
Livvi sounds like she's already caught on well to it.

[drummers mum]

Thanks guys I need to think about all your suggestions, digest and come back to you

I don't have a book, although I did have Alex's so have read it, but not sure what I did with it!

[drummers mum]

Well, I had a lesson yesterday and we did lots of clicker   All the stuff you said has now made sense.

Firstly Jane thought we should use the clicker to help with timing and Livvi cluing in better to the noise and it did make a difference, she was much more focused and started to relate the click better to what we were doing.

Jane rightly pointed out that we don't have stop and go! Livvi is not in front of my leg and not totally understanding stop so she put out a circle of blocks/cones and we used the target and stopped at each block, clicking for the stop and her touching the target, we then took away the target and just stopped, she clued in quickly.....now although I am not going to do this ridden on my own yet we progressed to riding with Jane in charge of the clicker and me groveling for treats.

As this was something more than a clicker lesson we also worked on non clicker stuff that then turned out to need the clicker after all , Livvi falls in on the right rein but in hand she doesn't, plus she bends nicely and doesn't lean in on her shoulder so we think its not physical but mental, the cirlce really helped as we could click her for staying outside the cones and I am to use the cones whenever I can.  We did all this on the buckle as we are also holding each other up!!!  This I knew but had no idea how to fix it so this is our first step!

Interestingly she was less stessy than ever and clued in, Jane said to use the circle whenever I can as her security blanket, take it in the field etc to give her confidence because she gets so worried all of the time.

Anyway, if you understood that it will be a miracle, I am rubbish at writing stuff up, but I do know what I am doing, honest!

[SNC]

I get a bag of badminton hi fibre plus nuggets for clicker training.  They last longer 

[Wendy]

I get a bag of badminton hi fibre plus nuggets for clicker training.  They last longer 

Oh yes I forgot about them, they are much better. Only we can't use them now because we are doing the 'Thunderbrook' thing and they are banned. 

[ChrissieW]

I'm having another flurry of clicker stuff with Daisy (although Minnie insists on joining in if she is around and I end up having to multi task two!  )

It might be worth trying something different to see how she does with it (carrot stretches for example).

I found this with Daisy, she didn't really connect or get interested in basic targetting, I thought I had to keep it basic at first to get her to understand, but she quickly lost interest.  Yet had a good understanding of clicker, as I also was using it to teach her things away from the box like standing at mounting block, leading out etc.

I was a bit non plussed as to what to do, but after a break decided to try some carrot stretch type flexions with her and she LOVES them and its now got her targetting much better and keep her interest.      I still haven't quite got the moving feet thing from standstill yet, she will do small movements, but will contort herself all over the place to touch the target, plus is also quite good with it in walk too (something I HAD to introduce to try to eradicate her rearing when being led sometimes - a work in progress still).

Like TK says about Saffy, I think both my mares just find basic targetting a bit boring.

Treat wise, I tried linseed lozenges with Minnie, she was not impressed at all!     She loves rosehips, will go the extra mile for those, but I mainly use as standard normal treats that come in the big green and white tubs as I can't be doing with anything smaller as its too fiddly 

Mins also adores sugar lumps, so I keep those for special reinforcement when I'm organised enough.

Daisy I have found loves extra strong mints - we've found that if you give her one to suck (I make her do something and click first) on the way to and from the field, she spends so long sucking the flavour off the inside of her mouth afterwards, she forgets about scary things that make her rear 

[drummers mum]

Thanks everybody, I have been using carrots sort of peeled to death but they make a nice soggy mess in your bum bag and extra strong mints...you are right about the linseed lozenges, she can take them or leave them so loses enthusiasm.

Its been going great btw, yesterday with our clicker circle she started to anticipate walking on and we were off, its lovely to have her so light and forwards in hand so I took her large around the school, introducing halt away from the circle....

....I have seen threads about clicker training for forwards but I recon clicker training for halt has the side effect of producing forwards.  What do you think?

[thecatsmother]

....I have seen threads about clicker training for forwards but I recon clicker training for halt has the side effect of producing forwards.  What do you think?

Well you can't stop unless you've started in the first place, so yes it will make them keener to go so they have the opportunity to be asked to stop 

[ChrissieW]

I've never really thought about it before (probably should!), but yes I think one of the things that has increased Minnie's forward reaction in her ridden work is clicker and I haven't particularly used it for forwards, so its just a side effect of more enthusiasm.

I'm getting good results with Daisy and her leading/rearing at the moment with targetting, but its too early to say if its going to resolve the issue completely.

[whisper's mum]

I carry a whole carrot tucked in the top of my waistband when riding, and bite off bits as I need them ... it also stops me from collapsing in the middle and slouching! 

[Icy Lady]

Mmm, I use anti-lam - Ljufur wouldn't eat anything cheaper