Upper arms

[Naiad]

When you see the classical riders, they always have their upper arms vertically down their body with a nice bend at the elbow and it seems to give a very distinct feel to the way the arms look to an observer.

Then when you see some modern competitive dressage riders (I just looked at a few on youtube) they have a similar position perhaps (?) but the "feel" to the observer is different - are their arms in the same position as the classical riders, but the difference I sense is the tension in the reins? Or is there some difference in how they might hold their upper arms etc.?

When you look at many videos/pics of lower-level dressage riders, the upper arms often come forwards of the vertical - the upper arm is not hanging right down the body but has an angle slightly forwards (even my own avatar has this, but I had just gotten out of ICU and was weak/ill, and not very far in dressage training when that photo was taken - things have now changed). Are dressage coaches just forgetting to work on the upper arm position or something? Even the competitive dressage rider seem to have more vertical upper arms, so why are many students etc. not seeming to get taught this?

Final question! Why is a vertical (hanging right down the body) upper arm a good position for dressage - what does it do that makes it an effective upper arm position? Probably something about allowing the elbows to be soft or elastic I would guess, but I am not completely certain.

[Trudi]

That's a really good question and one that is perhaps, as you say, often overlooked. The upper arm needs to hang down in a relaxed way to avoid tension in the shoulders and elbows. The position of the elbows close to the body's core is secure and with a good open angle between lower and upper arm places less strain on the arm muscles allowing the hands to remain light and 'carried'.
Some of the modern competitors do seem to have a lot of tension in their arms even when they have the perfect upper arm position, I'm not sure why that should be because in theory when the horse advances through it's training it should be less reliant on the hand and more carried by the seat...perhaps because often the compo riders are over horsed compared to the classical set that tend towards more compact horses? Perhaps because more often the compo riders use the hand in a different way to the more latin (some say french) classical set the first group keeping a still hand and riding into it from behind and the second group using the hands to 'play' with the lightness of the horse. Different roads to Rome some say 

[Woody]

a good observation
I wonder if emphasis is placed on arm position if the hands are still at lower levels - I think not
I'm a bit limited in the arm length department and stuggle with shoulders back and hands low at the same time - so with young horses something has to be a bit of a compromise - I've only ever had one person suggest to me that what they wanted was physically impossible unless I arched my back so much that it reduced my overall torso height

I haven't ridden a good (or almost any..) warmblood but I wonder if the feel in the hand is very different to an iberian - I suspect this is the case as their overall way of moving differs.

[Heather]

No it isnt different, Debbie, if the horse is well trained. I have ridden some Iberians which were heavier in the hand than a well trained warmblood. 

The important thing is that the upper arm should hang as straight down as possible- I nearly said 'perpendicular' but was taken to task on the IHDG only this morning for using a word which she described as 'tortuous use of the English vocabulary'- so I will stick to 'straight down'

[Wendy]

I wonder if emphasis is placed on arm position if the hands are still at lower levels - I think not

This is something I was only recently taught, and it is so important. In fact it is key to staying stable in the saddle. If your arms are hanging down vertical, with a bend in the elbow you will be much more secure in your seat (read "less likely to fall off"   ) than if your arms are outstretched. Outstretched arms cause your centre of balance to fall forwards.

[Woody]

it is totally impossible to relax the arm, shoulders, back etc with your arms out in front - just to try walking around like this for a few minutes makes me realise just how difficult it is let alone trying to train a horse at the same time

I wonder if instructors pic on other things first with a novice rider as they don't want to overload things , maybe if at some point they want the rider to stabilise the hands on the front of the saddle for example they don't want to then go back and say they now need something different

....off to find a well schooled warmblood to play on .....

[Heather]

I always tell students to imagine that they are walking up a High Street or crowded shopping centre like that- would they get some strange looks? It is so unnatural for the shoulders to have to carry the weight of the arms, and no wonder riders get tired as a result!

Well schooled warmblood?  Hmm, I would go for issywizz's lovely old GP boy Cas- he is wonderful to ride!