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Author Topic: A few questions!  (Read 743 times)
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Cheryl
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« on: December 01, 2010, 11:41:10 AM »

Hi,

I wasn't really sure what title to give this post...I started to call it "a few contradictions" but I am certain that the misunderstanding lies with me.  Can anyone help to clarify any of the following points?

1) "Aid ahead of time, for no apparent reason. It is like putting money in the bank for some future purpose". (Hebermann, quote taken from Arrow Equestrian site-hope that's okay)…but what is the difference between "aiding" too far in advance and effectively preparing a horse for a transition, new movement, etc? In other words how do you prepare a horse well without aiding in advance??? Is it about asking for impulsion/collection in advance of riding any new movement?

2) In Anja Beran's book "In Deference"  she says one should never use the reins alternatively as it has a restraining effect? But what about when squeezing and releasing when asking the horse to soften his jaw?  I normally squeeze one rein and then the other…(but what about question 4-do the reins each have different roles?)

3) “Never use rein and leg aid at the same time”  How do people time/coordinate this? At the moment I am trying to build impulsion on the horse I am riding and encourage him to carry himself correctly-my instructor tells me to use a combination of my legs and small sqeezes on the reins…again how do you coordinate this??? Should I be aware of which of the horse’s legs is moving and time according to this??/

4) Beran says “a horse should always be on the outside rein”…and I remember reading in another post that Herbermann says to “feather” the inside rein only and half-halt with the outside rein.  Does everyone differentiate between the inside/outside reins in terms of their role/purpose?  If so, can someone explain this to me please…

5) Hebermann: “After every rein aid, soften both hands forward”.Does this literally mean let hands forward or merely release the fingers?
 Also, when holding the reins is it wrong to tilt the wrists?…this is something I have fallen into the habit of doing-i.e tilting the wrists and effectivey giving with the rein in this sense.  My instructor has told me not to!  I always give my horse breaks on a long rein frequently between exercises but I am not sure that I am “softening” enough throughout schooling sessions-do other people find it difficult to maintain an elastic contact?  Any tips?

I have lots of other questions but I think I will stop there for now and save them for a future post.  I am wondering whether there is an underlying theme to these questions that might help to clarify my thoughts…anyway, in the meantime any feedback is much appreciated,

Cheryl x
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Heather
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2010, 05:18:29 PM »

Hi Cheryl,

Off to cook supper for parents, but will try to answer questions later! As Sarah- issywizz- has had many clinics with Erik, perhaps she can answer the Herbermann queries, and I will add my own thoughts! nod
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issywizz
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 10:31:27 PM »

Hi,

I wasn't really sure what title to give this post...I started to call it "a few contradictions" but I am certain that the misunderstanding lies with me.  Can anyone help to clarify any of the following points?

1) "Aid ahead of time, for no apparent reason. It is like putting money in the bank for some future purpose". (Hebermann, quote taken from Arrow Equestrian site-hope that's okay)…but what is the difference between "aiding" too far in advance and effectively preparing a horse for a transition, new movement, etc? In other words how do you prepare a horse well without aiding in advance??? Is it about asking for impulsion/collection in advance of riding any new movement?

2) In Anja Beran's book "In Deference"  she says one should never use the reins alternatively as it has a restraining effect? But what about when squeezing and releasing when asking the horse to soften his jaw?  I normally squeeze one rein and then the other…(but what about question 4-do the reins each have different roles?)

3) “Never use rein and leg aid at the same time”  How do people time/coordinate this? At the moment I am trying to build impulsion on the horse I am riding and encourage him to carry himself correctly-my instructor tells me to use a combination of my legs and small sqeezes on the reins…again how do you coordinate this??? Should I be aware of which of the horse’s legs is moving and time according to this??/

4) Beran says “a horse should always be on the outside rein”…and I remember reading in another post that Herbermann says to “feather” the inside rein only and half-halt with the outside rein.  Does everyone differentiate between the inside/outside reins in terms of their role/purpose?  If so, can someone explain this to me please…

5) Hebermann: “After every rein aid, soften both hands forward”.Does this literally mean let hands forward or merely release the fingers?
 Also, when holding the reins is it wrong to tilt the wrists?…this is something I have fallen into the habit of doing-i.e tilting the wrists and effectivey giving with the rein in this sense.  My instructor has told me not to!  I always give my horse breaks on a long rein frequently between exercises but I am not sure that I am “softening” enough throughout schooling sessions-do other people find it difficult to maintain an elastic contact?  Any tips?

I have lots of other questions but I think I will stop there for now and save them for a future post.  I am wondering whether there is an underlying theme to these questions that might help to clarify my thoughts…anyway, in the meantime any feedback is much appreciated,

Cheryl x




Why me?  Shocked laugh

Ok Q1 I dont actually understand your question?  cc_confused 
Q2 is one for Heather really but I ask for what I need at the time so if I want one side to soften I ask that side if I *then* need the other side to soften I will ask the other side but I should think the point is to be clear what you are actually aiding for and not start randomly fiddling with the bit.

Q3 Again same issue as above,be clear what you want to achieve and be clear on how to address it,the legs ask for energy ( and sideways of course but thats a different issue) the hand filters the energy and also asks the horse to yield its jaw or flex etc.
The point is not to use an ACTIVE leg aid at the same time as an ACTIVE rein aid mainly but also to give the horse space in front if you ask him forward,ie; dont TRAP him between driving and restraining aids.
So do you need more energy ( use a leg aid) or do you need him to yield the jaw or flex ( use a rein aid).

Q4 feathering the inside rein is to ask the horse not to lean on it,feathering involves a quick open of the fingers followed by a slow closing,Im not entirely convinced by its effectiveness tbh perhaps Heather could explain how she asks for the same thing?
Basically you want the horse gently flexed to the inside but to feel EVEN in both reins anyway.
Half halt with the OS rein because the horses inside hind is recieved there.
 Q5 literally just means soften or in other words dont hang on or have a "holding" quality but go back to the neutral elastic quality where neither horse nor rider is pulling.If you ride with fingers open when not aiding then yes the fingers would be open,whereas if you ride with them closed they would be closed but SOFTLY.

Yes its very wrong to tilt your wrists,how can you have the uninterrupted elastic connection from your seat via your elbows/hands to the horses mouth if the wrists are tilted? You need a straight line from elbow to bit and your elbow needs to have an elastic connection to your seat.

For sure,a consistent elastic contact is one of the hardest things to learn because it is dependent on several things;
1) having a supple allowing seat
2)being aware of and able to absorb and correctly follow the horses movement
3) having no stiffness anywhere in your body
4) that the horse is supple and free from stuiffness and able to accept your contact
5) Learning *how* to connect with the horses mouth through your whole body.
It takes time,good instruction and discipline to train your body and mind to achieve this,its probably the hardest thing you will ever learn!  laugh
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Cheryl
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2010, 11:08:34 PM »

Thanks, Issywizz Smiley

I really appreciate your feedback. 

Can I just double-check something.  You said
Quote
literally just means soften or in other words dont hang on or have a "holding" quality but go back to the neutral elastic quality where neither horse nor rider is pulling.If you ride with fingers open when not aiding then yes the fingers would be open,whereas if you ride with them closed they would be closed but SOFTLY.
This is really interesting as I have a habit of just holding the reins between my thumb and index finger and opening my other fingers (closing them when asking for more of a contact) but I have been told to close my fingers around the reins to have a more consistent contact and so as not to give the reins away so much between opening and closing.  So more recently I have been trying to close my fingers around the rein, albeit lightly (holding a bird so to speak) and squeezing with my ring finger and little finger when asking for an outline - alongside with my legs)-so does that mean I am okay to ride with my fingers open??? Is it just "horses for courses" -i.e. a choice that each rider makes in accordance with the horse they are riding?  How do you favour holding the reins?

Also, to clarify question 1:
Quote
Aid ahead of time, for no apparent reason. It is like putting money in the bank for some future purpose".
I really just wondered how people prepare their horses for a new movement without aiding the movement?  However, on re-reading the quote I think I misconstrued what Herbermann meant and see on hindsight that he is encouraging riders to aid ahead of time Smiley

Sorry Issywizz one final thing I wanted to ask: You said
Quote
The point is not to use an ACTIVE leg aid at the same time as an ACTIVE rein aid mainly but also to give the horse space in front if you ask him forward,ie; dont TRAP him between driving and restraining aids.
So do you need more energy ( use a leg aid) or do you need him to yield the jaw or flex ( use a rein aid).

This makes total sense...but I wondered if you or anyone else can clarify how to achieve implusion whilst maintaining contact-I think this question arises from adressage test I did the other day (my first Smiley ) and one point of feedback was that at times I needed a 'stronger contact' and more implusion...To me the contact felt 'strong' but then I am used to riding quite loosley until recently.  Should i be yielding with the hands when asking for impusion with my legs and then immediately pick up a 'contact' with the hands...or am i completely off-track?

I am probably over-thinking all of this but am so keen to learn...I sometimes feel that I need to go on an intensive working placement in my school hols to really develop and understand these things...any suggestions???

Cheryl x
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issywizz
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 07:49:58 AM »

Hi Cheryl,

Well there seem to be two schools re the fingers really but I personally have arthritis in mine anyway so mine are closed but very loosely,the main thing is that they arent tight and gripping and that you have them closed enough to have some space to open further imo.
Yes thats all that Erik was saying really,hes talking about aiding * before* the walk has nearly dwindled to a halt for example and yes,we always prepare the horse in advance for the next movement.

Contact,well to my mind it should never be *strong* but ideally it should be consistent and elastic not floppy or loose but that isnt an ACTIVE aid its merely a *connection* the ACTIVE aid would be when you ask the horse to soften the jaw or flex which you do separately from the leg aid.
The contact should just be *there* not hanging,not pulling back and without the horse heavy or leaning on it,its a largely passive thing.When you need more impulsion you give the leg aid to ask the horse to step under more,if he rushes or leans *then* you can give an ACTIVE rein aid ( along with the seat aid) to slow him or ask him to soften again but not at the same time as that just confuses him.You must give him space to work into but space doesnt mean looseness.
With a lazy horse sometimes it is necessary to give rather a strong driving aid in which case you may briefly as a retraining exercise push the reins forward to really emphasise to him that you do mean forward.
But generally the reins maintain their *passive* contact as the leg asks for impulsion/forward etc.

Yes it would be a good idea to go and train somewhere as feel cannot realy be taught without a hands on training and most of this is about feel.Ask Heather if she could take you or reccomend somewhere  Cheesy
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Cheryl
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 09:24:35 AM »

Thank-you, again Issywizz...there is lots for me to think about especially with regards to maintaining a "passive" contact.  As I said I have come from a place where I rode with a loose contact -at the time believing it to be kind but the more I learn the more I recognise that "contact" in the true sense of the word is an important part of helping the horse carry the rider without detriment to himself...

Yes, Heather if you can recommend anywhere for a short-term/intensive training placement (i.e. in school hols-a month in Summer?) in exchange for work (?) please let me know.  Thanks...

Cheryl x
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issywizz
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2010, 10:00:15 AM »

Cheryl,
IMO a loose contact is necessary to begin with until the rider has developed a steady seat that stays with the horse as he moves and they have rid their body of stiffness.
Taking up a closer contact too early is unfair to the horse IMO and the horse will soon let you know by showing various resistances.
This is why I hate to see horses with their mouths clamped shut in flash nosebands,as 9 times out of 10 the horse is perfectly right to be resisting the contact hes presented with so he shouldnt be made to shut up.
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Cheryl
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2010, 11:42:18 AM »

I am in 100% agreement with what you say, Issywizz Smiley...I recognise that an independent seat and gentle hands are essential.

Cheryl x
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Heather
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2010, 07:23:00 PM »

Cheryl, although this article is about the pelham as such, I have also described how I use the fingers.

Have a read, hope it might help! I am going to try to put up some video clips to show such subjects, as soon as I get time next year, if my wretched broadband will let me upload them!

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=26
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