Tell me about CT with a stallion behaviour

[Lippa]

Ok. I want to hear if you have any good ideas or think clicker could work in case of stallion behaviour.
Its my madman Cseles.
He has had a very bad history and been trained by stress. We have had over years several fights and good times,the whole rollercoster you can imagine with a smart,sharp lipizzan. I think we are now in a much better place than ever before and would like to try if clicker can help him.

He is very stallion like.It looks like his ex owner did use him for mares black even told me he did not.He is very polite to handle and ok from the ground but there are periods when he gets stupid when ridden with other horses.It makes no difference if its mare or gelding,its more like if the other horse is "his type".If you know what I mean...

What he does is,gets tense,makes noises and takes his thing out. Cause he easily gets up on two legs and jumps up to the air if "punished" or asked harsh,I want to find an other way. I have a trick of putting my other spur on and then he is ok,but wonder if someone could find out clicker way.(And no,I did not teach this spur-trick in a very nice way...but that time it was me against him.)

If you think not,tell me so,cause the pressure is working to keep me safe and I am better safe than sorry.

I myself have very little experience in clicker,have tought some targeting and bow etc. earlier to my other horses.Cseles earlier was so stressed in work that could not take food,but is no more relaxed and could take a treat for thank you.

[ash]

Lippa, you will get replies from people more clicker savvy and clued up than me but......

I would be reluctant to say that there is one 'trick' or 'behaviour' that you could train using CT that would solve your problem.

He sounds like a very, very complicated chap, and what you describe could be a series of many layered behaviours that he could be exhibiting for a number of reasons.

If he is a horse who has been trained predominantly with heavy aversives, taking him down the clicker route could mean you spending a lot of time simply undoing what has been done, before you can work on creating new behaviours. This in itself can mean opening up a whole can of worms.

I think that clicker can help to solve your problems, but I do think it will take more than just simply 'bolting on' a new behaviour to really do so.

Now that is just the opinion of a relatively inexperienced clicker type person, others may well disagree.  I hope you don't think I'm being unhelpful.

[issywizz]

I have a feeling that the answer would be that you need to completely embrace clicker and retrain completely with the clicker.
However having not gone down that route myself I can only say I dont see why the head lowering wouldnt be a plan.
When you ask him to lower the head from the ground as you show in the Branderup vid,can you not use the same aids from the saddle?

[Trudi]

  Lippa has gone to the dark side 

No advice, I'm not clever enough at CT to offer any but I think IW could be right, go embrace the whole idea rather than adapting it to fit around your training. I don't know but I would guess from what you say he would enjoy the work  I find it's quite addictive with a responsive horse;  it isn't  magic, sometimes it feels like it is but it relies purely on good training just like any other method. Perhaps training some mat work (head down etc)  where he learns acceptable behaviour in the company of others with the added motivation of the mat could work. Someone clever like Hilary or PK will be along soon 

[ash]

I'm no guru Lippa, but that is a huge, huge question.  There will be many philosophies on what re-training a horse with 'issues' like yours will entail.

There are different philosophies on how far you can combine clicker with any sort of training that involves even small levels of aversives and pressure.  You will get answers ranging from 'turn him away for 6 months, and avoid combining any clicker training with any form of aversives', to 'start with targetting and work from there'.

Here are a couple of websites that may help

www.theclickercenter.com

www.hartshorsemanship.com

I'm not trying to put you off at all, I think it is a great idea.

[ash]

Just to add, it's not uncommon for horses who have previously undergone harsh methods of training, to initially become rather insecure and aggressive when re-started with clicker.

Most training involving negative reinforcement works on suppressing undesireable behaviour.


Clicker and other methods of positive reinforcement training will encourage him instead to offer behaviours, and you will choose what to reinforce.  This is likely to rock the foundations of his world and initially make him feel very insecure to begin with.  So you may find that initially things start to get worse rather than better, or he may be reluctant to offer behaviour at first, then throw everything at you!

You will need to think carefully about how this will change your horse, and how you will respond to these changes, as punishment, negative reinforcement and clicker do not always make a happy combination.

 

[ash]

Actually, the best way to start is probably to get a really good book on learning theory.

Ben Hart's book is great, as is Emma Lethbridge's.

That would be my starting place if I were you.

[ash]

Dictionary definition.....


Aversive = Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.

Lippa, there is so very, very much more to clicker training than simply teaching tricks, particularly to achieve what I think you are looking for.

Do read everything you can on the subject, and give it lots of thought.  Best of luck. 

[ash]

Well in that case, I'm the biggest loser I know, but that's been said before, so no news there.

[Trudi]

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php/topic,41138.0.html


There are some vids of PK and Jensen on this link. I'm not a great reader    either and learn better by watching and applying, I just don't absorb written facts. I did download Ben Hart's shaping plan but tbh it was just basic common sense and I felt a bit robbed of the few quid it cost me  Everyone is different and learns in different ways. Very basically the mat is the place you go to do things and as such becomes a secondary reinforcer as it is a place you go for pretty concentrated CT work, it seems to have a calming influence on Chapsi and helps his concentration but Moo just doesn't see the point  There are some basic things that it sounds like you've covered already like targeting, head lowering, how to get them to wait politely for the treat etc

Oh and Ash you are NOT a loser!

[issywizz]

HAHAHAHA!! Lippas got to read! 

I agree with Trudi though,I read quite a bit and I got sooooo bored as it did just seem basic common sense to me. 
* retreats swiftly from the clicker board *

[issywizz]

Its just not right,I dont think I can take it much more 

[lisaNW]

I'm not feeling well enough this eve to write an in-depth reply. But I think there are two things. You could try doing a little bit of clicker and incorporating teaching an incompatible behaviour such as head lowering (ie he can't head lower and be looking at mares etc. at the same time), and you may see some benefits of this. But others are right that you'll see much greater results if you adopt CT as a training method as a whole. The more I read and understand and the more I see what others do with the clicker too, I really reccommend actually getting some training or watching some good vids etc. I'm no guru, but it would take me forever to try to explain from start to finish and I think its time most people don't have hence I think we often see a diluted form of CT which is less effective or doesn't seem to work in some cases. And I guess, like classical training, most of the very good CTers expect you to pay them for their knowledge, LOL!

Do some reading and look at Alex Kurland's site too - see if you think its the right route for you.  

Lisa

[jenb]

I spoke to Ben Hart during our clinic about using CT with Gazdag.  Ben sussed out how clever he was in a few seconds flat, and asked me what I wanted from my horse.  I said I want to encourage personality and for him to feel he can express an opinion to an extent, but that under saddle I want him to focus and be obedient, as his main job is dressage.  Ben said he wouldn't recommend CT for Gazdag because he was just too clever and I am not expert enough in CT to keep far enough ahead of Gazdag and have the perfect timing necessary!  I think CT is a nice tool and you can have some fun with it, and for *some* horses and *some* riders it can work as the mainstay of their training together, but it honestly is not for every partnership.  Having met Cseles, I am not sure it would do what you want it to do - you could still have fun, and I do think it might help him to chill out a bit more about his work, but honestly not sure it would help with the reacting excitedly to other horses issue!

With a really smart horse like a Lipi I really think you'd have to be quite good at CT and be sure your timing was good to stay ahead of them and not frustrate them.

[issywizz]

From what I can gather there is a big difference between CT as done by Ben and CT as done by AK,each camp seems to not think much of the other