thoughts on forward...

[Nix77]

Work is horribly stressful at the moment, so I am dealing with it by the time tested method of procrastinating and thinking about horses...

I have been riding various horses recently and I was thinking the other day about what forward is and isnt.... I ride two that are naturally onward bound. one because he is an ex racehorse, and is happiest when going forward really fast, smooth, and low, the other because he has hunted a lot and also gets very tense - its much easier for him to charge on like a plank of wood rather than soften, bend and listen.

They both 'move faster' very easily when you put the leg on, but actually it isnt forward.... to get engagement of the hind end, more folding of the joints, and more energy circulating through the body, rather than just dissapearing through the hands, or shoulders, it is much much harder.

This led to thinking - what is forward and how do we achieve it? As always i have been spoiled with don - although he is hard to get going, he naturally goes forward well, as long as you sit right and dont throw away the contact. However this clearly doesnt work with the above horses - so what does? and what does it feel like?

KT - Until don gets going properly again, he is my favorite of horses to ride. Sensitive and athletic and eager to please - lovely! But he is very not confirmed in his way of going, and easily gets tense, curled up, above the bit, and long and low and fast! So you have to be right.

So last week i had a go. This is how i did what i did, may not be right, but it worked. I got round First. I know, very bad of me. I did this by taking a contact - not heavy, but i could feel his mouth. I then 'asked' by inside leg, soft elastic contact, and inside hand to get bend. he knows what to do, he just needs asking, so when he bent, i say good boy and we go forward into a super still contact. If he comes up, i say No, and half halt (body and close outside rein). He has bend, but it is too short. So we work on getting him softer and longer, through circles, and outside flexion on straight lines. We also ensure using my seat, and core, that we are not rushing off at 300 miles an hour. he tries to rush rather than bend, but when i say no, and ask again, he tries the correct answer instead (Good boy). When he realises that actually this is quite nice, he relaxes and takes the contact forward. Lots of good boys when he does this. So, i have a horse that isnt going forward, but isnt rushing, is round, but inconsistent in the contact, and often will drop behind the bit.

This is where his owner had been going wrong. She just put leg on - with the sensible idea that as he used his hind he would stop curling and move into the contact. unfortunately, he is perfectly capable of going faster and faster, and longer and less connected with his method - with his head still behind the contact, or in front of it...

So what do we do? We want more hind leg, not more faster, We want more connection, not more speed.

I start by going into trot. I have found with ex racers, that a good rhythmic trot seems to calm them down. So into trot, I set the rhythm with my rising. We start to put in 10m circles, and I insist he is round my inside leg. I ask for a very clear bend inwards, and using a passive outside leg I make sure he is curled round inside leg, not sticking his arse out to leg yield. This slows him. I then do some diagonal changes of rein, and from x I ask for a bit of leg yield to get his inside hind working.

This gets him listening to me and understanding a bit about bend, and also using his hinds a little more. However, we also drop off the activity. So I step it up. We go back to walk, and I start using some sideways. SI on a circle – quite exaggerated, actually, I really want to feel him stepping through, HI on a circle. Then I am a horrible horrible bitch. I put him into trot, and in sitting trot I slow with my hips (thanks heather!) and ask for a 8m circle (this boy is really athletic) and then a little SI down the long side, with little circles now and then. For a break we go into 20m stretchy circles – NOW he is taking the bit forward.

After this I get back to sitting trot, and ask for SI on a circle in Sitting trot. OMG! He collects. When I go forward from that I GET BOUNCING! He lifts from his flat trot and we get some elevation. I am so pleased with him.

We finish with some canter work. Normally he goes very flat and tries to tank… but set him up using a little SI before I ask for canter, and we get reach through his back legs. I can actually sit it (not very well, I am crap at canter) and we do a lovely 20m circle.

Big pat and end. I collapse in a heap cos my core muscles have been working overtime. So I do get some forward on him, but it takes a session to do it. And I want to get a TB.

This was far too long. Anyway, I have more stories of other horses and how I can get some forward. Tank boy, aka puppy is more entertaining when I get it wrong as he takes off and occasionally broncs. Will post if anyone asks for it. Otherwise, how do you get forward and what do you think it is on yours?

[Nix77]

Oh yeah, you can argue with me about the round first too, if you like...

[Trudi]

OK gloves off 

Only joking 

Forwards is one of my pet subjects  for me forwards is more of an intention within than a physical movement. It should be something I can channel and work with, it's a willingness. Most importantly I think that you need to work on stopping just as much as going, I've  found that horses that aren't forward aren't good at stopping either and I don't mean you CAN'T stop them but more that they do it in their own way, they refuse to be partners and prefer to do it their way which means you can't build up a working relationship. Although it's just as hard to train horses that are hot/whizzy as those who hardly move at all I always go for hot given the choice.
Sounds like you know where you're heading with the horses that you ride and are getting the results you want which has to be a good start.

[issywizz]

Sounds like Trudi has described losgelassenhelt to me. 

[Trudi]

 

[Nix77]

Why do i keep agreeing with lippa?

Its interesting, cos the first kind of forwards - move off the leg, i need to instill in don

the second kind - hind leg action - is what you also need.

Re. lossyglossywhasit - this is not forwards to me - you can have this but not forwards, although i dont think you can have forwards without it?

[issywizz]

Nope you cant have lossyglossy without forwards.

[Nix77]

OK, now am confused. I thought lossyglossywosit was relaxtion and rhythm?

[issywizz]

It is but it is more than that too.
How can you have good rhythm if the horse isnt forward?
A horse must also be coming to the aids to be lossyglossy and he wont be if he is not forwards.

[Nix77]

OK, then, it is as i suspected - everything is more like a circle and less like a pyramid - on the aids, rhtym, relaxation, forward - you go round and round, and get better at all, you cannot start from one, get that 100% then move on. This may not make sense, my brain is already futzing today...


re. rhythm without forward - Don is a master! it is lovely and cadenced and rythmic, and his hind legs are in the next bloody field...

[issywizz]

Yes I almost said that about the circle,whats important is to have a certain level of each aspect before moving up really.
You may have rhythm without forward but it wont be a *good* rhythm.

[Nix77]

 - i suggest you watch one of my vids of me riding don in competition - lovely rhythm - like clockwork - no bloody forwards at all...

but he is special...

normally, i agree. I use rhthym a lot (and cannot spell it apparently) to calm hot horses, as it seems to lull them into relaxation. But until they are relaxed, and forward, the rhythm is very much down to me NOT them....

This is one reason i stopped reading so much theory. I got very confused when actually riding. Now i am getting a bit better with the riding, i am trying to add the theory back in!

[Trudi]

  more agreement from me, it's always a circle of ever improvement.
I still feel 'forward' is a state of mind/reaction though  it's not lossyglossy but without it lossyglossy is impossible. What Lippa describes is being off the leg in my terms but I wouldn't fall out about it as she has the power of the bobble 

[catkin]

I shall read this thread with great interest

For a simple soul like me, with ordinary riding horses, 'forwards' is that surge of power that comes from the back end, absolutely unmistakeable once you've felt it - and it's quite a mental thing too- you just 'sense' the horse is with you. I think I get the roundness first too - the contact is not at all strong but you definitely know the horse is there on the end of the reins - if that makes sense.
Or is that a complete load of bull...........

[issywizz]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
All this agreeing is very tiring 

I can disagree with Nix though 
You cannot have *good* rhythm without forward,good rhythm isnt just about whether its regular its about whether its the right rhythm for the horse which means it must have swing and purpose.