How far can one go in classical training?

[Naiad]

I bought Amigo as a wonderful dressage horse prospect for my level of riding (at this stage, low-level novice dressage but I'd like to move up at least a bit beyond that, and I love the classical dressage approach) - he was initially trained as a hunter/jumper horse. Amigo is now 8 years old, and is a 17 2 hh tb/clydes cross. He is extremely sound and sturdy physically, and he is extremely sane and relaxed mentally. He has a natural head carriage, is developing good hind strength - his biggest conformation flaw would probably be his rather long back.

Almost any horse is capable of doing basic classical dressage training, and of course this type of training can be good for almost any horse.

But in terms of the kinds of movements/level of training that an average type of horse can achieve, (i.e., Amigo is not some fancy bred horse born to do dressage), where are the limits and what determines the limits? Will the limits be set by Amigo's body, conformation and perhaps mind, or do my own limits come into play as much? What kinds of movements are within reach (given work, time and patience) and what kinds of movements/training levels are really beyond the reach of most "typical" horses?

[Trish]

I don't think any movement is particularly beyond the range of a 'normal' horse, have you ever sat and watched horses playing, most of them will piaffe, extend at trot, collect and be quite capable of halt to flat out gallop naturally ....... its whether the rider can get it out of them under saddle I guess   

[catkin]

Trish is right - also some will have more physical ability/talent to do some movements better than others, for example some will have a more spectacular extension that others - doesn't mean other horses can't do it - it will just be their pace for that particular horse (if that make sense)

If we remember that then why not have a go? Amigo will probably astonish you with what he will eventually be able to do, my dear old 'Heinz 57' croup-high crazy mare did

[Naiad]

So really there are no particular obstacles to move forwards quite far in classical training.

I do think that compared to some horses Amigo has a couple of big advantages for dressage - he carries his head/jaw etc. so naturally relaxed and untense, which is a really strong starting point. And his attitude and mind are just perfect for this kind of work.

[Teddysmum]

Hi there, I have a Highland with excellent conformation it is true but I never expected him to have the flair for dressage that he has and I am absolutely certain that it has been developed since I discovered classical training.  Unfortunately (for me) I am also certain that rider ability is crucial - think of when someone like Heather gets on board and suddenly the horse is doing wonderful things!  Conformation also plays a part, Teddy does extend but not with flashy toe pointing so a lot of judges don't even realise that he has   I too am obsessed with Classical training so is almost everyone else on this board!  Enjoy!!

[Trish]

And his attitude and mind are just perfect for this kind of work.

I always find the really hot horses bordering on unhinged, move the best though when you harness their behaviour, for me there's just something really 'extra' watching a really sparky hot horse move correctly, I have no idea what it is though - it just gets to me in a way nothing else does 

[Candypony]

I HATE placing limits on myself or other people.  They're unnecessary in my opinion.

Having said that, and being more realistic, I've spent thousands on training and certainly wouldn't have got we are already without it.  We've gone so far beyond what I'd done with previous horses that I wouldn't have had the knowledge to get here without help.  So, whilst the idea of the only limit being our own perceptions, I do wonder if realistically money does help - and being prepared for it to take me far longer than someone who's trained a horse many times before.

Injuries and illness aside though, I think any horse should be able to do all the movements, the skill is training them to be able to do it whilst carrying a rider, with grace, poise and harmony - which can only come with gradual, gymnastic training, building muscles and confidence...

[issywizz]

Its more down to the riders ability how far the horse will progress imo,as long as the horse is and remains sound of course.
And yes training most definitely but not just about money but about having the right trainer so you can avoid the 101 dead ends that are part of the journey 

[Larri DB]

I always look to my instructor Becky for inspiration on this kind of issue - she was told she was an idiot for buying George as a potential dressage horse at 3 1/2 (seriously!) - too gangly, confirmation not amazing, everyone said he could / would never collect etc

Well she is absolutely classical and she trained George from just backed - no gadgets, no fixing, no force - just correct gymnastic classical training from the word go - and it's done them both proud in mainstream affiliated dressage!!
The pair have qualified for the National Championships at every level up to Medium, was FS rest. Elementary National Champion in 2008, qualified and came 6th in the Adv Med regionals this year and has just gone out and done his first Advanced test!

[ash]

The way I look at it is that true Classical horsemanship is for the horse.  No horse has perfect conformation, and classical horsemanship is for every and any horse because it is tailored to each individual.

For me, it's like the difference between people who do yoga to show off their ability to do all the spectacular poses, and people who listen to what their body needs and tailor their yogic practice to that.

I see classical training as being a bit like yoga for horses, all the 'fancy moves' are not there for exhibitions sake, but to help the physical, emotional and mental development of the horse, to make it more beautiful.

So in that sense there is no 'how far', you just do what you need to do for the development of the horse.

Dear Lordy, I sound like a pious pain in the butt! 

[issywizz]

No you dont Ash,sounds right to me. 

[Naiad]

Dear Lordy, I sound like a pious pain in the butt! 

Nope, it was actually an interesting answer!

And we have every right to sound pious on this topic, because our way is the best way! 

But to expand on your answer, even if not for exhibition's sake, you still think that many horses can end up doing some (or many) of the more striking moves (that some might do just for the exhibitionist quality alone) because many of those moves will actually be good for the training of that particular horse. Is this what you are saying???

[ash]

Depends what you mean by striking.  There seems to be a lot of stuff that is done purely for dramatic appearance and as a crowd pleaser.

My basic argument is that if it isn't for the horse and for his mental, physical and emotional development, then it isn't classical.  Classical equitation is horse centred not rider centred.  If a horse can produce 'striking' work without it being of detriment to itself then great.  If the rider wants to produce 'striking' work that is at the expense of the horse, and just for the sake of being striking then that isn't classical work IMO.

[Naiad]

Depends what you mean by striking.  There seems to be a lot of stuff that is done purely for dramatic appearance and as a crowd pleaser.

Striking from my novice vantage point is anything beyond rising trot on a 20m circle or transitions etc.!!!  I suppose that I mean nice collected work, a nice shoulder-in, passage - stuff like that - it all looks just so striking to me when done in a oh so nice classical way (by striking I don't mean flashy extended trots and the typical flashy competitive version of striking).

[issywizz]

I think that most movements are of gymnastic benefit to the horse as long as they are shaped correctly and not obtained through force or shortcuts ( using the marionette system to train passage would be an obvious example of NOT good for the horse!)
I think also that something that is common now in top competition is to train the horse in a way that is so demanding that when it is allowed to move 'correctly' in the arena it is easy for it,that is wrong also imo.
Im thinking here of riding in rollkur and spurring its hind end into piaffe for example so that when its allowed to have its head up again the piaffe is easy for it.