Clicker training for improving schooling motivation and way of going

[Erin's mum]

Schooling motivation and way of going probably aren't usually so directly related but I think in my horses case they certainly are. I'm resigned to the fact that Erin will never share my passion for dressage  but though my expectations for improvement are remaining rather low I thought i'd give clicker training whilst schooling a go, if nothing else for a bit of fun. I'm also going to get back to jumping her a bit which she'd much rather was her profession but I really don't want to have to give up the dressage entirely as it is really what I want to do.

So my hope is that by using the clicker I can improve Erin's motivation for schooling and make it a more positive experience, which both of us have very much lost! She can go very nicely and when we're both in the right mindset, her elementary work is very good in the snaffle. But most of the time its pretty rubbish as she will object to anything other than a simple circle. I know its not physical- that's been checked out- but some days she will happily trot a decent shoulder in and others she barges off accross the school. What i'd really like is to be able to use the clicker in times that she says 'bog off!' to get her back in the right mind set and really make her understand that all will be lovely if she doesn't fight everything...ambitious?  Perhaps though this isn't possible? Her inclination to fight leads to a hollow, rather tense horse. Can you train a horse to relax with a clicker without it turning into a trick? Whats more can you teach a horse correct flexion without it becoming a set head position? 

She understands the clicker having taught her a few tricks with it so don't need to start from total basics but what would you guys suggest I concentrate on first? Should I use it for more specific movements such as shoulder in for now, just to improve her motivation or is there anyway I can use it to reward her just being cooperative and staying relaxed in her frame? Would that just confuse things? And do I need to focus and click only for one thing during each session ie. shoulder in or travers? Although I hold little hope out for us, I do still believe that if we could 'just' break this barrier and change her mindset to be more submissive (not in domineering way, just cooperation), attentive and positive, everything could easily fall into place. She doesn't find the work itself at all taxing. A big ask I know but worth a bash!

Thanks for any help on this - we're definitely nearing the end of the road re. dressage so will give it my best try.

[hilary]

. Can you train a horse to relax with a clicker without it turning into a trick? Whats more can you teach a horse correct flexion without it becoming a set head position? 


[/quote

A lot of questions,  but I find this concept of what is a trick quite fascinating

Have just looked in wikipedia
Tricking, a martial arts based sport with emphasis on aesthetics
Illusion or act of misdirection
Magic trick
Confidence trick
Skateboarding trick
Hat-trick, in sports, succeeding at anything three times in three consecutive attempts
Stop trick, a simple film special effect
Trick-taking game, a type of card game
Trick-Trick, a Detroit rapper
Trick, an acrobatic move performed in an acro dance

( I want to go look up the martial arts version!)
There seems to be a real thing against a trick,but I am not sure why . Perhaps it is just a question of language and semantics !

Anyway , yes I believe clicker training can help put a horse into a relaxed posture. Alex K uses this using her exercise of head down. this can be tagith from a rein cue -  you actually elevate the lead rope up , to ask the head to drop  -  this then easily transfers to rein cues  -   for my long and low teaching I use an up and over forward movement with my hands to obtain the long and low.

Re head carriage  -  I think that to use the clicker just for "correct head carriage" may indeed not achieve what you wish to achieve. I tend to concentrate on either lateral flexions ( these can be very small) , lateral work etc  -  when that is great -  then the "headset" going straight will come. Also , the ability to ask for a lower head carriage ( re the above paragraph ) can help.

Motivation  -  you say she loves jumping ( and perhaps you do too!!)  -  so think laterally  -  don't do just do dressage or jumping v -  can you set up a couple of jumps -  then play around with shoulder in  etc   - reckon if you do shoulder in , round the corner to the jump, yo may find her technique increases, and the jump may give you both motivation.
Go look at some the working equitation videos to give you inspiration   -  then you can work on dressage wtih a purpose;


Clicker training definitely does motivate  - I have a highland of the "slower" variety ( if human she would love to pose for the boys, dance in the night club, but show her an athletics track and she would be puffing by the first corner!). Today she did some canter in hand  -  at liberty with me  -  clicker training definitely motivates her  -  but it has been small increments at a time.

As with any other training method C/T takes time .
you say you have taught her a few tricks,HAve you used it under saddle at all? If not, you can choose something potentially easy to introduce it. For her , a great behaviour may be a relaxed walk on a loose rein. Choose a time when she will likely do this, then start from one step ( yes, that is correct!!) and work up to loads of steps.If you get this solid, you can the do a little shoulder in, and then use some walking on a loose rein between exercises ( still C/T) . You kind of want her default behaviours initially to be relaxing ( Of my 2  -  my highland pony default is an alert pose, whereas with my lusolippi, I want relaxation more).

Whatever you decide to do enjoy!

[ash]

I belive clicker training can be hugely motivating.

However you can't teach motivation by saying 'today I am going to clicker train my horse to be motivated', in the same way that you can train them to ground tie, or pick up a cone.

Alex Kurland has a wonderful saying (although I'm not sure it's actually hers, it sounds more like Confucious or something to me) "Everything is Everything Else".

The beauty of clicker training is that it can help your horse to love everything you do with them, and as everything is everything else, then yes, that means their work as well.

However, I am starting to think more and more that it needs to be more than just a 'bolt on' to 'normal' training techniques.  Sure it can be, but if you are going to reach the many many layers that come out of the training, I think it needs to become more of a philosophy.

To illustrate what I mean, here is a really great article on clicker just to get you thinking.....

Are You Clicker Training, or Training with a Clicker?
By Kathy Sdao on 10/01/2006

I began teaching people how to clicker train their dogs in 1996. At that time, most pet owners had never heard of clicker training and few class instructors took it seriously. Mine was the only advertisement in the local Yellow Pages that mentioned the word "clicker." I had to persuade students to even try this novel gadget.

A decade later, clickers are now common in dog training classes. But, I suggest, clicker training still is not common enough.

I do believe "clicker training" is an unfortunate term for what we do. It's misleading in two ways:

1.You can "clicker train" without ever touching a clicker. I did this when I trained marine mammals. During those 11 years, I used various behavioral markers, including an adjustable-pitch Acme Silent Dog Whistle (with beluga whales), an underwater acoustic ping (with US Navy dolphins in the open ocean), the word "good" said with specific pitch and inflection (with a walrus named E.T.), and a single silent clap—a visual marker (with the dolphins at the University of Hawaii's Kewalo Basin Marine Mammal Laboratory).

2.You can use a clicker for training, yet be doing something quite different than "clicker training." I've met trainers who see nothing odd about holding a clicker in one hand and the transmitter of a remote shock-collar in the other. Their carrots are backed up by big sticks. Clearly, this is not clicker training.

So we're left trying to define genuine "clicker training" in order to distinguish it from "training with a clicker." Before I attempt this, let me acknowledge a few things:

•Clear definitions matter. They allow us to talk about abstract ideas with as little ambiguity in our conversations as possible.
•Definitions are social constructs. They aren't handed down from on high, etched into granite tablets. We—everyone who uses the language—create them, through discussion and consistent usage, though the opinion of experts does tend to carry more weight.
•Clicker training is a powerful behavior-modification process. It warrants delineation from other training approaches.
•It is needlessly divisive to define "clicker trainers" (versus "non-clicker trainers"). We are talking about a method and a philosophy, not a classificatory label. Though I passionately promote clicker training in seminars around the country, I sometimes use other training techniques (e.g., classical counter-conditioning). When working with animals, sometimes I'm clicker training and sometimes I'm not. Whether I (or anyone else, for that matter) should be labeled a "clicker trainer" seems beside the point.

And so, when you use a clicker to train your animal, are you clicker training (CT) or training with a clicker (TWC)? To answer this, consider the following questions:

Clicker training is a powerful behavior-modification process. It warrants delineation from other training approaches.

1.Is the click an event marker?

CT: The click pinpoints a behavioral instant, a moment of muscle movement. (With clicker-savvy animals, the click may sometimes be used to mark instants of non-behavior.)

TWC: The click is used in a less precise way, as a general signal that the animal has earned a reward.

2.Is the click a release?

CT: The click informs the animal that his movement met the trainer's current criterion; that is, his behavior was "enough" to earn reinforcement.

TWC: After a click, the trainer may require further behavior from the animal before paying up (e.g., after clicking, the trainer withholds reinforcement because the animal didn't stay in place, or didn't finish the weave poles).

3.Is the click meaningful?

CT: It is essential that the animal recognize the click as an independently meaningful signal. Therefore, great care is taken to ensure that the sound of the click occurs in a sort of "stimulus void."

TWC: The click is often overshadowed or blocked by other stimuli salient to the animal, occurring simultaneously with the click (e.g., the presence of a food lure on the dog's nose, the trainer's intention movements toward food). As a result, the animal becomes desensitized to the sound of the click; he will not react to it in ways that indicate anticipation of food or play (e.g., flicking the ears, looking toward the source of the click, wagging the tail).

4.Does the click predict a strong positive reinforcement?

CT: The click is paired with the animal's deepest desires: food, toys, interactive games, social companionship, etc.

TWC: The click is often paired with weaker reinforcements such as praise and petting.

5.Is the treat delivered "in position"?

CT: The emphasis is on delivering the treat as soon as possible after the click (though never simultaneous with the click). The treat is delivered regardless of the animal's position subsequent to the click. The trainer knows that the animal's position at the instant of treat delivery is reinforced, and so, when planning a training session, considers various ways to provide the reinforcement.

TWC: The emphasis is on delivering the treat while the dog is still in the correct position. Treats may be withheld if the dog moves out of position when hearing the click (e.g., the dog forges ahead of heel position or gets up from a sit).

6.Who is doing more work: the trainer or the trainee?

CT: The trainee is the more active participant, moving more than the trainer who remains relatively passive. The animal's job is to behave, that is, to move; the trainer's job is to observe the animal and to deliver timely, consistent, frequent reinforcements.

TWC: The trainer is the more active participant, moving more than the animal who remains relatively passive. The trainer is focused on making behavior happen, and uses food lures, body language, and physical prompts to "help" the animal.

7.Is speed of acquisition of a few key behaviors the most important goal of the training process?

CT: Each training session is an investment in the animal's future ability to learn. Knowing this, the trainer sacrifices instant compliance to gain momentum toward the goal of accelerated learning, when the animal has "learned to learn" and training becomes virtually effortless. This is often accomplished by allowing animals to get "unstuck" on their own, without lures and prompts from the trainer.

TWC: The priority is getting the animal to perform a particular behavior (e.g., getting a dog to lie down quickly and completely). Lures, prompts, and physical molding—all behavioral antecedents—may be used to speed this process. The animal may learn this initial behavior quite quickly, but also may be hindered in future learning situations by a tendency to remain passive, waiting for "hints" from the trainer.

8.Are all four quadrants of the operant conditioning grid used equally?

CT: Clicker training is an intentionally "unbalanced" form of operant conditioning. It has a preferential option for positive reinforcement (i.e., the trainer adds stimuli the animal desires), and, to a lesser extent, negative punishment (i.e., the trainer removes stimuli the animal desires). In most cases, clicker training avoids using positive punishment (i.e., the trainer adds stimuli the animal dislikes) and negative reinforcement (i.e., the trainer removes stimuli the animal dislikes), knowing the fallout that can result. Clicker training gets rid of unwanted behaviors using extinction, the training of replacement behaviors, management, and negative punishment.

TWC: The four possible consequences are used in proportions that are more equal. Positive punishments such as collar-pops, physical manipulation, and verbal reprimands are used to get rid of problem behaviors and to deal with the animal's non-compliance. These aversives are interspersed with clicks and treats.

I've met trainers who see nothing odd about holding a clicker in one hand and the transmitter of a remote shock-collar in the other. Their carrots are backed up by big sticks. Clearly, this is not clicker training.9.Is the main emphasis control or communication?

CT: Clicker training is an elegant and effective method for communicating with animals in a coherent way. It challenges humans to strip away the constraints of verbal language and to tap into a more universal way of conveying information. Control of the animal's behaviors then flows as a by-product of consistent, clear communication and effective motivation.

TWC: Behavioral control is the principal goal of training. Communicating with the animal is the means to this end.

10.Is it important to realize the animal's full behavioral and cognitive potential?

CT: At its best, clicker training maximizes each animal's potential. It strives to make the animal a fully active, thinking participant in the training process. It encourages the presence of "the other" by constantly expanding animals' behavioral repertoires and by providing ever-greater cognitive challenges.

TWC: Training with a clicker may also aim high, attempting to tap into the animal's maximum potential. Often, though, the ultimate goal is a specific repertoire of discrete "obedience" behaviors, performed reliably on command.

Of course, when you come right down to it, a clicker has no inherent meaning. It can be used in all sorts of ways, both within animal training and outside that realm (e.g., US Airborne troops in World War II used clickers to identify friendly forces; Catholic nuns before Vatican II used them to cue the movements of students in church). My hope, though, is that the term "clicker training" will come to have a standardized meaning and that my colleagues who "train with clickers" will call their method something else.

About the author:
Kathy Sdao is an associate certified applied animal behaviorist who has spent the past two decades as a full-time animal trainer. She is also a perennial favorite at ClickerExpo.

[TashaKat]

Clicker is fabulous but the motivation comes as a result of the training rather than something that you specifically train.  Clicker/positive reinforcement rewards the horse for trying so the behaviour itself becomes pleasureable.

I agree with Ash, personally I would be very wary of just bolting it onto current training without understanding the consequences (poisoned cues etc).  

I don't think for a minute that you use heavy -R, Em, but it is something to understand before you go down that route.  I think that most people, apart from the most fundamentalist clicker trainers, use some -R but are always careful to use the lightest -R possible (unless it's an emergency situation of course).  

For example, I have seen YouTube videos of horses at 'liberty' who may as well still be attached to a rope.  The behaviour (liberty) has been trained using other methods, the horses don't always look happy (in fact often look p'd off) and it just looks like the line has been photoshopped out.  Like rollkur it isn't just the end result that you need to consider but the journey.  I have never specifically trained Saff to work at liberty but she does, it's as a result of clicker rather than something that I trained.  If she has an off day she doesn't stay with me and that's fine, I move onto something else.  Yesterday the other horses decided that it was dinner time so I just couldn't get her attention ... I gave up

Clicker is definitely worth considering, it's a fabulous method/philosophy/whatever, but it's not necessarily a quick fix.

[lisaNW]

However, I am starting to think more and more that it needs to be more than just a 'bolt on' to 'normal' training techniques.  Sure it can be, but if you are going to reach the many many layers that come out of the training, I think it needs to become more of a philosophy.

Totally agree - I'm really starting to beleive that you can teach anything to the highest level your horse is physically capable of and that you can do so with a highly motivated horse  using the clicker, but there is a hell of a lot to understand to get there. The way I was using clicker with C just wasn't sufficient to really motivate him, but since doing some training with Alex I'm seeing a whole different world. You do have to be prepared in some cases to go back to basics and brek everything down though, so there is a requirement for lots of patience and some serious in-depth thinking at the start. It can seem like going backwards at first, but when you get those solid building blocks in place you can progress much quicker. I also would have made lots (more!) of mistakes if I hadn't gone to Alex and I'm lucky that Johanna (Pikku Karhu) helps excercise C and has been clicker training with Alex for several years so I pick her brains too.

If you're really interested in going down this route, when you come to see Mul (when I'm well again) I will show you some of the process if you like, I'm sure Johanna would also come over too. You also have Amanda very close to you who has trained a lot with Alex...I can send you her details if you like.

[Erin's mum]

Wow! Defo lots to learn here  fab- thanks guys! Don't have time atm. to read that article but will do properly when i'm back on tuesday (no internet in edinburgh flat for now  ). Lisa that would be fab if you could email me Amanda's details. And would be great to do a bit of it when we get up to you- I vaguely remember a loonng time ago trying to introduce Mul to the clicker and him taking off round the box every time it made a sounds hahah  . Sounds like i'll need some help with this if we decide to go down this route and tbh don't have too many options apart from just go back to pelham/double which don't really want to do entirely as (selfishly ) it eliminates all BYRDS stuff so i'm all ears!. It is also something that I think would definitely be a useful tool to learn properly  Need to have a read of all the fantastic posts there will be on this. Hilary; wish I could include jumps in a schooling routine but she defo puts her jumping head on and any attempt at schooling would be a loss. Although maybe that could change with the clicker.

Thank you

[lisaNW]

Ah...Mul is fully conversant with clicker now and likes to make it known that that you've got it all wrong if you're not wearing the bumbag ready for a session  What we're doing/have done with him is very low key, but he'll teach you a lot about the process.

Will pm Amanda's details.

Lisa

[hilary]

Glad you have decided to look at more indepth clicker training   Amanda is great -

[Erin's mum]

Haha, bless him    Looking forward to visiting him and you guys when your better (no rush!  ). Thanks for the link- looks like she's very active  definitely will look into getting her out aslong as its not gona be crazily expensive as I will probably (understandably) have to fund it  . Lots of reading to do...just need to get blasted internet sorted in Edinburgh now!