I'm still learning and Hon thinks I need some pointers!!

[janehon]

OK so this is a post Hon probably wishes I'd done ages ago!!

We have been playing at a bit of clicker stuff but we have hit a hurdle - or I have hit a hurdle - I can't get us over 

I think we have these ideas established but I may be wrong....click means good - when she hears the click she looks for her treat and don't crowd me - she will ruffle my pocket when I click but knows to move her head away again before she gets her treat. (sometimes I have to wait for her but she's pretty good)

I have been trying out a few things targeting is hard for us. I have been using a green lid and although she will appear to touch it quite deliberately if I am holding it at arms length somewhere she won't follow it futher? She will follow it if I move with it around the box but won't follow it to the floor for example. I can get her to do one or maybe two before she decides she does not want to play anymore? However she won't follow it down if I go with it either. She will move toward it a little but not actually touch it.

I have also had a play with what I think is micro-shaping on the lunge CT any small movement toward a longer more relaxed neck and therefore back (she is a very uptight little horse) I tried to use a tounge click for this and "good girl" She seemed to get it and would stop on her circle but wait for me to go to her to deliver the treat. I have tried similar patterns out hacking and although I have a more relaxed horse I'm not convinced she knows why she got the treat?

I wonder a couple of things
one Is it uncomfortable to put her nose on the floor? Is that why she is not so keen on eating at the mo? Although she is grazing fine in the field??
two Am I messing up the timing etc? Probably
three Is it just that the basics are not there really? Again probably
four Is it just that she doesn't like putting her head that low?

So can you offer any advice on how to check the basics? If she is just reluctant can I use the same principle I used on the lunge with th target so CT any lowering of the head to the target? If I did that should I leave the target out when I CT or remove it and place it again for a second attempt?

This is becoming somewhat long so I'll stop and see what you think.

[TashaKat]

To be honest it sounds to me like you need to go back to basics and establish those before moving on.  If ever things are going pear shaped I always take at least one, if not more, steps back and find that it helps to consolidate things.  How did you establish the link between the 'click' and the 'yes' (what exercise did you use)?

Target training is an excellent way of teaching the relationship between the desired behaviour (or the try), the click and then the treat.  It is really important to establish this before you go any further.  The click marks the behaviour (YES) and the treat is the reward (THANK YOU). 

If she's targetting the lid when it's in front of her then it may be that you've moved it too far away and need to make a smaller movement initially.  Also make sure that you've not been rewarding her for targetting the box (I presume you mean the clicker) as it is so easy to teach something that we aren't meaning to

With regards to treating I wouldn't want her ruffling my pocket even though she does move her head away for the treat.  Have you done the 'don't mug' lesson?  If she was nosing at my pocket I would ignore until she looked away and then click/treat.  I would also make a point of holding the treat away from me to treat so that she gets the idea of personal space.

My impression is that she's not fully understanding the process at the moment to be honest.  Most horses, once they get it, will be able to apply the principle to anything else.

Do you follow a specific method of clicker training?  It's probably worth looking at someone like Alexandra Kurland for the basics as only once you've got those down can you successfully move onto other things.

Good luck

[janehon]

Right,

In answer to your questions...

To be honest it sounds to me like you need to go back to basics and establish those before moving on.  If ever things are going pear shaped I always take at least one, if not more, steps back and find that it helps to consolidate things.  How did you establish the link between the 'click' and the 'yes' (what exercise did you use)?

We used targetting a green lid. As long as the lid is attached to the end of my arm she will target it, and she will do a couple if it is raised a little off the floor eg on her bed not the mats or on the edge of the old manger but not at all if it is properly on the floor. I make a point of feeding the treat from the hand which wasn't holding the target as she did just follow my hand initially, rookie mistake! I do make sure I click when she touches the lid and not my hand or arm.

If she's targetting the lid when it's in front of her then it may be that you've moved it too far away and need to make a smaller movement initially.  Also make sure that you've not been rewarding her for targetting the box (I presume you mean the clicker) as it is so easy to teach something that we aren't meaning to

By box I mean Stable which is where we have been working with her loose. She will move to touch the lid if I move round her box, change the side of me it is, lift it up, hold it back past her head so she has to bend/reverse to touch it but she resists going down to touch it? SHe is tense though and tends toward an upright carriage even at rest in the box.

With regards to treating I wouldn't want her ruffling my pocket even though she does move her head away for the treat.  Have you done the 'don't mug' lesson?  If she was nosing at my pocket I would ignore until she looked away and then click/treat.  I would also make a point of holding the treat away from me to treat so that she gets the idea of personal space.

I didn't explain that very well I had written a long bit about teaching pockets were out of bounds and decdied it was not needed but didn't check the bits I'd left made sense... She used to ruffle my pockets so did the don't mug lesson and now she pretty much remembers and just forgets everynow and then. She looks at me and I hope that it is the click that triggers that but it might be my hand going to my pocket which makes her go goody.

I have a copy of Getting to Yes by Sharon Foley which I have been reading and using. I tried applying it on the lunge as it is one of the few places she will relax a bit better although only in walk and thought I might have more success using to congratulate her on something she can do if that makes sense  She is a complete wimp and I think it's going to be really hard to persuade her to 'try things out' as is the theory but I thought IF I could teach her the basics it might make her a bit braver and more ready to try things - does that make sense? 

[ash]

I can't recommend Alex Kurland's books and DVDs enough.  There is a comprehensive synopsis of each one on this site....

www.smaarthorses.co.uk

If she is a tense or nervous little bunny, she may just take a while to offer behaviour.  Stick with it though, and if she isn't 'getting' something, break it down into another five steps for her.

The DVDs are great though, and contain so much detail, even about things as seemingly simple as treat delivery.

[Pikku Karhu]

Echo the others, and defo agree that it sounds like the reason why she won't follow the target is that you've tried to take too big a step... I would go back to where she completely understands (target the lid when it's in front of her). Then move it away just a tiny bit further - just an inch or two and see if she'll target that. If not, then 1/2 inch, or whatever she will accept. Build up the increase in the distance really, really slowly - if she loses interest, just go back as many steps as you need to, and try putting in a smaller step still.

It's always good to establish basics really solidly before moving on  - Alex's book & DVDs will take you through the foundation lessons (and beyond) in an easy to follow, step-by-step format.

My Nell is quite similar in character to Hon - a literal Nervous Nellie  - and it took her awhile to really get motivated by clicker. Once she - or maybe more truthfully, I - got the hang of it, there's no stopping her & it's given her loads of confidence. 

[Trudi]

Interesting questions and I can't answer any of them 'cos I'm only just starting out myself 
I like the answers from the others, makes sense 
Just a few things from my limited experience. I found that one of mine picked up targeting better when we were wandering about, say on the yard, and as we came to something (a fence post, a gate, a wheelbarrow for example) I gave the cue to touch and  their natural curiosity made it easier to find a behaviour to click. On the other hand Moo learned to target my hand (not the treat one  ) first, just using the same cue as touching an object.
Look forward to hearing how you get on 

[janehon]

Well we have been practising, and we are improving 

I have a theory to test that she is actually happier to play it out in the field, maybe similar to Trudi said??

Yesterday and today we have a play in the field in an evening. I just worked with her loose in the field next to the one they are grazing - it is about a couple of acres and I thought she may go wandering off to graze but she hung around to play with the numpty and her clicky box!! 

I changed target (does that matter? used an old scruffy brush) and kept it really easy and tonight I really think it 'clicked'. I'm sure I saw some recognition in her eyes and face when I clicked her and she was even quick enough to move her aim from the clicker back to the brush at one point. Even with it up close sometimes she'll think about it first - like she's in no great hurry, but food really isn't her be and end all.

I think there are a few things slowing our progress.
1. My timing can be a bit off when I start a session  must work on that.
2. She hadn't actually quite made the link properly
3. I wasn't keeping the session short enough
4. She is more relaxed in the field so more willing to concentrate on working the problem out - I'm going to test this tomorrow by working in the stable again, I think she is less relaxed and so feels the need to keep a look out which distracts her.
5. She needs to relax into the idea that it OK to try things....goblins will not eat her if she gets it wrong. She really is a worrier though so I have tended to jolly her along with lots of 'help' and instruction if you know what I mean. I want to do it now when she is struggling so think it will be good for me to learn to leave her alone a bit more and for her to work things out herself

[ash]

Well that definately sounds like progress to me!   

The thing is with CT that it looks so ludicrously simple, but as you really get into it, you start to unpack so many layers to what you are doing, and it really sounds like that process is starting to happen for you.  Even 'going back a step' often isn't really going backwards at all, you are just developing deeper learning by using things you have already done.

It's also brilliant that you are also tapping into her body language as you are training which is a superb skill to develop.

Oh and isn't it a wonderful feeling when you realise that they would rather stay and play with you than wander off and stuff their faces? 

I have a feeling that your lovely little mare will simply blossom with CT, and it sounds like you are both doing really, really well! 

[janehon]

Oh and isn't it a wonderful feeling when you realise that they would rather stay and play with you than wander off and stuff their faces? 

Yep 

Been playing a bit more although not in stable as haymaking has got in the way.  Still made some interesting discoveries

She definatly has the click thing recognised - as soon as I click her attention is on me but equally as important she is not crowding me for her treat, I thought she might start too when she really sussed it

I have learnt to be quick to make it easier if I start to lose her but need to be carefull not to get carried away when it's going well

She still tends to have more attention on the world in general than me Don't know quite what to do about this?? Even if the target is right under her nose her attention can be taken from the task in hand. She touches it eventually but can take her time, I always make an extra special fuss of her after one of these interludes to try and get her attention back on the game in hand.

She will chase the brush across the floor by moving backwards and or sideways for it but not forwards? I am trying to consolidate the stuff she can do and just keep testing the forward one. we can do a dropped on the floor in front of her within reach but not if it out of reach. I'm wondering if this is a body language thing and she is being a bit cautious about going past me to get the target or I'm blocking her somehow?

I'm really enjoying it though it's nice to have something you can almost class as work that we can do in 5-10 mins. I don't feel like such a bad mother when I don't have the strength for lunging or riding. 

[janehon]

She touches it eventually but can take her time, I always make an extra special fuss of her after one of these interludes to try and get her attention back on the game in hand.

At guess you are going to say I'm teaching that is the required reaction aren't you??  (like the grabbing grass senario)

[Trudi]

  sounds to me like you've made really good progress Jane and you're right it is good to make progress in a session that can be only 10 mins and yes it is work   
I did find it very helpful with Chapsi to start rewarding his 'interest' ie when he became distracted by external stimuli to click when he turned back to me or showed even a remote interest...it's a bit like the mat work, high reinforcement engages them big time  (oh and I got that from PK so not my own clever thoughts  )

[janehon]

Ah so I should click her for coming back to the table to start with then again when she touches the target rather than waiting for her to touch the target alone. Is that right??

Thank you

[Trudi]

Well it worked for Chapsi but as you know I'm not in any way an expert  seriously though it does make sense, you're rewarding their interest in you and then moving on to the work in hand. The other thing I've worked hard on is not to keep asking, eg my cue to touch is a verbal 'touch' plus a physical double tap on the object to be touched, so I give the cues and then wait (I never did, I used to give the cue, no reaction = cue again  ) he is clever enough to hold it in his brain for more than 2 secs  and then some. This slowing/quieting of the cue giving has been brilliant and we have a much better relationship because of it. Oops, sorry off on one there.

[janehon]

Don't worry all input is gratefully received. Repeating the cue is something I'm guilty of. So that's something else to work on

[ash]

She still tends to have more attention on the world in general than me Don't know quite what to do about this?? Even if the target is right under her nose her attention can be taken from the task in hand. She touches it eventually but can take her time, I always make an extra special fuss of her after one of these interludes to try and get her attention back on the game in hand.

I think you will find that she will become more focused as she gets more confident with it.  It is quite important in the beginning to make it easy enough for them that you can keep the rate of reinforcement high, this certainly helps with motivation.  You could also use 'jackpot' treats for a particularly nice piece of behaviour, this could be something that she finds extra yummy but that you wouldn't want to give her all the time e.g. a mint or a piece of apple. 

Also, just to state the obvious, if the target is literally right under her nose, she won't necessarily be able to see it!

She will chase the brush across the floor by moving backwards and or sideways for it but not forwards? I am trying to consolidate the stuff she can do and just keep testing the forward one. we can do a dropped on the floor in front of her within reach but not if it out of reach. I'm wondering if this is a body language thing and she is being a bit cautious about going past me to get the target or I'm blocking her somehow?

This could well be it.  I don't know how long you have had her, or how she has been trained in the past, but if she has been punished for brushing past, or walking ahead when leading, she could be reluctant to try that now.

I'm going to open a can of worms here, and I am not in any way casting aspersions on your training at all, but I'm just going to talk generally here.  In general, training methods that mainly involve the use of negative reinforcement tend to focus on suppressing unwanted behaviour (no matter how humanely they are carried out).  Positive reinforcement methods such as CT are encouraging the horse to offer behaviours, and by rewarding the desireable ones, and ignoring the unwanted ones, you get a nicely trained and reliable horse.  Sorry, I should say mainly positive reinforcement training, as I dont believe it is possible to only use positive reinforcement 100% of the time, even putting on a headcollar can involve mild negative reinforcement.

So horses who have been trained mainly using negative reinforcement, depending on their individual characters, can become less inclined to offer behaviours, which is why if you are changing your system of interaction with them to mainly positive reinforcement, it can take some time for them to come out of their shell and start offering behaviours with confidence.

Again, sorry if this is stating the obvious! 

I'm really enjoying it though it's nice to have something you can almost class as work that we can do in 5-10 mins. I don't feel like such a bad mother when I don't have the strength for lunging or riding. 

Definately agree with you here.  You are definately providing their brains with exercise, as well as their bodies.